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Forum LockedAffinity between ancient Iranic peoples

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    Posted: 07-Jun-2009 at 16:14

Iranian-speaking peoples had once occupied a region much greater than they do today: Persia, Afghanistan, Turkestan, Southern Russia, and Eastern Europe.

Among Iranian peoples there were a certainly degree of diversity: from the sedentary, urban Persians who had founded one of the greatest civilizations, to the steppe nomads like Scythian and Samartians.
I sometimes wonder whether these distinct peoples, leading such contrasting lifestyles, had anything else in common other than language.
Did the Scythians and the Persians, for example, share any common beliefs, social structure, art, and norms of conduct. Did they feel any certain degree of kinship between them?
 
could the relation be compared to that of the Iranians today with other Iranian-speakers such as Kurds, Ossetians, and Tajiks?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2009 at 16:53
It is important to know a region in the eastern Iran and souhern Afghanistan is known as Sakestan/Sistan (the land of Scythians) from the ancient times too and the people of this region are called Saksi/Sagzi, the famous red-haired national hero of Iran, Rostam-e-Sagzi is said to be from this region, however it is very hard to believe that the desert region of Sistan could be woodland, as described in Shahnameh, so we have to say the origin of these stories was from another land.
 
 
 
For example this famous tragedy of Rostam and his son Sohrab can be seen to be almost the same the Lay of Hildebrand in Germanic: http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/c4/c20188.jpg
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote douglasfrankfort Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 17:23
Maybe the caste system; there is a theory that all proto-Indo-European speakers had once lived in the same 'society classes' system: priest/warrior/farmer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 17:27
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:


For example this famous tragedy of Rostam and his son Sohrab can be seen to be almost the same the Lay of Hildebrand in Germanic
In what way(s) are the two almost the same?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote douglasfrankfort Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2009 at 02:18

Rostam had to battle with his son; and so did Hildebrand. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2009 at 08:06
So did Arthur, Oedipus (with his father), Zeus, Odin, and others.  So how is this not just Indo-European mythological similarities?  There are many stories that have fathers battling their sons, surely theirs more of a connection then that.  Saying that the story of Rostam and the Lay of Hildebrand are almost the same has to include more then just the fact that fathers battled their sons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2009 at 10:17
Add Suren to the list! Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2009 at 12:14
Sympathies, Suren.
 
Also of course there is the modern-day myth of the Mars family, where the father and son quarrelled and the father split off the tiny British part of his kingdom and gave it to the son to rule. And the young Mars greatly increased his kingdom until the day when he returned and conquered his father's kingdom, at last reuniting the two.
 
But you still can't buy British Mars bars in the US or American Milky Way bars in Britain.
 
I don't think myths (or true stories) of fathers battling sons are restricted to ancient Indo-Europeans. Didn't David have a bit of a problem with Absalom?


Edited by gcle2003 - 13-Jun-2009 at 12:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote douglasfrankfort Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2009 at 12:18
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

So did Arthur, Oedipus (with his father), Zeus, Odin, and others.  So how is this not just Indo-European mythological similarities?  There are many stories that have fathers battling their sons, surely theirs more of a connection then that.  Saying that the story of Rostam and the Lay of Hildebrand are almost the same has to include more then just the fact that fathers battled their sons.
 
I agree with you. For Lay of Hildebrand, there are only some fragments left; since you asked what the similarities between them were, I picked the only one that I can found.Embarrassed
 
And I heard that native Americans also had some myths about antagonism between father and son.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2009 at 18:29
I didn't ask for similarities I asked in what way are they, the Lay of Hildebrand and the Roskam story, almost the same as Cyrus claims.

This has more to do with Cyrus's theories about Germans being Iranian people or rather having a Scythian origin than anything else.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2009 at 21:03

What are the differences between them? even in details, if you know?

1. father and son, the leaders of two armies
2. after 30 years
3. invasion to the motherland
5. two armies meet each other on the frontier
4. a face-to-face battle between the father and son
5. listing the family tree
6. arm-ring
7. deceiving
8. killing the son
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2009 at 21:51
IIRC in the Mars story
1 - yes given that the 'armies' are modern organisations. Myths conform to their environments in detail
2 - a bit less than 30 years
3 - same
5 (!) - the frontier is in the courts
4 - the father dies before the son returns
5 (!) - the family tree is clear
6 - no arm ring
7 - no deception
8 - it's the father who dies
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote douglasfrankfort Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 02:14
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

I didn't ask for similarities I asked in what way are they, the Lay of Hildebrand and the Roskam story, almost the same as Cyrus claims.

This has more to do with Cyrus's theories about Germans being Iranian people or rather having a Scythian origin than anything else.
 
The similarities can't indicate that Germanic peoples have Iranian origin. They indicate at most that Germans and Iranians may have common origin. While according to mythology, some mythic topics are shared by most nations of human. Since non-Indo-European peoples also have such topic as father-son struggle in their myths, the similarities between Rostam and Hildebrand even can't confirm that Germanic and Iranian peoples have the same root.....Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 03:44
I'm glad you said that douglasfrankfort, I have been telling that to Cyrus for a while now in many threads; at least I know it's not just me who thinks this.

Cyrus, you just outlined a good deal of Arthurian Legend, as well as a whole bunch of other non-Indo-European mythology.  Similarities in plot don't show relationship, as I have said to you multiple times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 14:09
I also believe Germanic and Iranian peoples have a common origin, you can call it Iranian, Germanic or Irano-Germanic, anyway the obvious fact is that they differed from other Indo-European peoples, they were a people who believed in Goda (Middle Persian word for God [Modern Persian khoda]) and Kianig (Middle Persian word for king [Modern Persian Kian/Kiani), these are still the most holy words in the Persian culture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 18:26
Your right they did have a common origin, they originated from the Indo-European people.  in regards to god it comes from the Indo-European word *ghut-.  Similarities in vocabulary doesn't prove anything this has been explained to you, all these similarities in vocabulary prove is a common Indo-European origin of the Germanic and Iranian languages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote douglasfrankfort Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 08:25
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I also believe Germanic and Iranian peoples have a common origin, you can call it Iranian, Germanic or Irano-Germanic, anyway the obvious fact is that they differed from other Indo-European peoples, they were a people who believed in Goda (Middle Persian word for God [Modern Persian khoda]) and Kianig (Middle Persian word for king [Modern Persian Kian/Kiani), these are still the most holy words in the Persian culture.
 
It is very inaccurate to say that Germanic and Iranian peoples have a common origin called 'Irano-Germanic'. That's impossible. When their ancestors separated from proto-Indo-European peoles,  there was no 'Germanic' or 'Iranian' race groups. At that time, proto-Indian-Iranians were not divided; and Germanic peoples might be still in a greater human group composed of ancestors of Germanic, Slavic and Celtic. So there was no 'Germanic' or 'Iranian' concept then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 09:11
rather than discussing the similarities between German and Iranian, let's keep to the subject on the affinities between different Iranian groups.

For example, the Scythians and Samartians, although Iranian-speakers, were steppe nomads, who led a lifestyle very similar to the Turk-Mongol nomads living to their East.
Therefore, would Scythians and Samartians share more cultural elements with Turko-Mongol peoples than with sedentary Persians?

Is there any relation between the Slavs and the Iranian peoples of Eastern Europe?
How similar is Slavic to Iranian?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 12:57
You can hardly find any relation between original Iranian-speaking peoples and Indian, Slavic or Turko-Mongol peoples, of course there were some influences from one culture to another during a long contact between these peoples, but Iranian culture can be just related to Germanic culture, not other ones, it doesn't important Iranians believed in Ahura Mazda, Zurvan or Allah, they have always said "be name Goda/khoda" (in the name of God), and also it doesn't matter that their ruler was a khshaya/shah, basileus, malik, caliph, imam, ... they have always defended their kianig/kian (king, generation), if you find something in Iranian culture unsimilar to Germanic, you can consider that it is either from an non-Iranian origin or invented by Iranians in the later periods.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 14:50
You mean like the German rulers were called Kaiser from the first Karl to the last Karl? Or is 'Kaiser' also going to be on your list of Persian words now that it's come up?
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