History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedAbout Russian language: its difficulties

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Arekushii View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 22-Jan-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arekushii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: About Russian language: its difficulties
    Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 19:48
So I wonder what do you think about it, what are/is the most difficult field/-s in this language to study? Personally I think silent consonants are the most wicked along with reduced vowels
молоко(milk) for instance, you won't pronounce it like moh-loh-koh; солнце(sun) - soh - ntseh (e vowel is similiar to English schwa).
Now say your ideas LOL
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 21:38
Unfortunately, there are not too many people that study Russian here. Unhappy
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Suren View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Chieftain

Joined: 10-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1673
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2009 at 08:59
Previet Sarmat! Kag dila?
Anfører
Back to Top
Arekushii View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 22-Jan-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arekushii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2009 at 13:05
Sarmat how sad :( then time for them to do it? :P
Anyway if you have some questions related to this wonderful language please don't hesitate and ask :p

Btw it's - priv(j)et ~ привет (hello, hi) kak dela? ~ как дела? (how do you do/how're you?) second is written in a cyrillic script



Edited by Arekushii - 28-Jan-2009 at 13:09
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 7011
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2009 at 13:31

It must depend what language you're coming from, and sometimes even which dialect. Dark 'l's are easier for people with natural Wessex accents than for people with standard (BBC we used to call it) English accents.

As far as pronunciation is concerned I'd say the distinction between the hard and soft consonants is the hardest to get right.
 
Grammatically though the most difficult for someone not from another Slav country must be the verb aspects, especially with the multiplicity of, e.g., perfectives correspomdomg to an imperfectiive, like "pisat'" gives "popisat'", "napisat'", "zapisat'", "opisat'" etc, each of which has its own meaning, and can then have a further imperfective like "'opisyvat'".... 
 
Somewhat like the difficulties phrasal verbs give people from many other backgrounds learning English.


Edited by gcle2003 - 28-Jan-2009 at 13:32
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2009 at 13:45
Originally posted by Suren Suren wrote:

Previet Sarmat! Kag dila?
 
Privet Suren ! Big smile
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Arekushii View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 22-Jan-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arekushii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 11:58
gcle2003 You also forgot to mention semantic properties of words like delaj and sdelaj (in english it's just "do"), but overall, if there're normal language schools with normal teachers it's rather easy to acquire 2nd or 3rd language skills. It just takes time to get used to things, common in Russian, like inversions na poljane krasivoj derevo raslo (inversion, while normal sentence: na krasivoj poljane raslo derevo) - A tree was growing in a beautiful meadow; and stuff like that :p

Edited by Arekushii - 30-Jan-2009 at 11:59
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 17:13
Originally posted by Arekushii Arekushii wrote:

It just takes time to get used to things, common in Russian, like inversions na poljane krasivoj derevo raslo (inversion, while normal sentence: na krasivoj poljane raslo derevo) - A tree was growing in a beautiful meadow; and stuff like that :p
 
I believe this is a grammatic influence of Uralo-Altaic languages. Including Finno-Ugrian ones Wink.


Edited by Sarmat - 30-Jan-2009 at 17:14
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Arekushii View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 22-Jan-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arekushii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 11:52
Awesome, Russian's a Finno_ugric language now. Seriously stop relating everything to F-U..  I haven't studied the history of Russian language, but surely that is a nonsense.. Old Bulgarian was heavily modified in Russia so the nowaday variant of it can be called Modern Russian while Old Bulgarian - Church Slavonic.
Anyway if no one knows what to say, please close this topic, or just try ask something if it's unclear Wink
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 7011
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 12:01
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Originally posted by Arekushii Arekushii wrote:

It just takes time to get used to things, common in Russian, like inversions na poljane krasivoj derevo raslo (inversion, while normal sentence: na krasivoj poljane raslo derevo) - A tree was growing in a beautiful meadow; and stuff like that :p
 
I believe this is a grammatic influence of Uralo-Altaic languages. Including Finno-Ugrian ones Wink.
 
It's common in English, though it sounds poetic.
"In the beautiful meadow a tree grew", "In the beautiful meadow (there) grew a tree", "There grew in the beautiful meadow a tree", "There grew a tree in the beautiful meadow" are all perfectly acceptable English, usually because the speaker is trying for a specific effect.
 
And of course you could put it any way around that you like in Latin.
 
So with regard to difficulty you have to state what language you are coming from.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 2818
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 08:12
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 
It's common in English, though it sounds poetic.
"In the beautiful meadow a tree grew", "In the beautiful meadow (there) grew a tree", "There grew in the beautiful meadow a tree", "There grew a tree in the beautiful meadow" are all perfectly acceptable English, usually because the speaker is trying for a specific effect.
 

In what IE language can you not do these things? I can thing of at least four ways to reshuffle that in Swedish.

The infernal verb aspect is the biggest problem with Slavic languages. The many cases are annoying in the beginning, but once you've learned them they aren't that big a problem. You can always claim your teacher was from some remote village if you make mistakes with them.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 03-Feb-2009 at 08:13
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 7011
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 10:41
I've worn out that excuse in Germany Smile
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 15:42
Originally posted by Arekushii Arekushii wrote:

Awesome, Russian's a Finno_ugric language now. Seriously stop relating everything to F-U..  I haven't studied the history of Russian language, but surely that is a nonsense.. Old Bulgarian was heavily modified in Russia so the nowaday variant of it can be called Modern Russian while Old Bulgarian - Church Slavonic.
Anyway if no one knows what to say, please close this topic, or just try ask something if it's unclear Wink
 
I didn't say that Russian is a Finno-Ugric language. of course it's Indo_european and Slavic. But I don't understand why it makes you so angry if Finnish and Turkic elements are present there? You need to study the history of the language indeed.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Status: Offline
Points: 1064
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2009 at 17:19
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Grammatically though the most difficult for someone not from another Slav country must be the verb aspects, especially with the multiplicity of, e.g., perfectives correspomdomg to an imperfectiive, like "pisat'" gives "popisat'", "napisat'", "zapisat'", "opisat'" etc,

This is pretty much the same problem foreign learners have with the English phrasal verbs: very natural to a native speaker, yet an incomprehensible mystery for a foreign learner. Those prefixes all have their meaning, just like those prepositions/adverbs added to verbs in English, or those German collocations like ''entschuldigen sich fuer'' etc. As far as I know, there is no effort to teach the students to work out the meanings of the aforementioned, whether one is learning English, Russian, German, Polish or whichever language it is - perhaps it's a mistake?



Edited by Slayertplsko - 14-Feb-2009 at 17:20
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 7011
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2009 at 18:27
'Aforementioned' is a good example to start with. You can't say 'beforementioned' but you have to say 'mentioned before' not 'mentioned afore' without sounding like someone trying to imitate a character from Treasure Island Big smile
 
It's something you just have to put up with....
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 2396
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2009 at 19:17

Lol. Yarr, hearken now to me tale of the meanings mentioned afore, ye puling whelps!!

Talk Like a Pirate Day must be a nightmare for ESL students ...

Is there anything like pirate-talk in Russian?



Edited by edgewaters - 14-Feb-2009 at 19:24
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Status: Offline
Points: 1064
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2009 at 19:24
Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

Lol. Yarr, hearken now to me tale of the meanings mentioned afore, ye puling whelps!!

Talk Like a Pirate Day must be a nightmare for ESL students ...

I have no idea what you guys are talking about, I haven't seen the movie.LOL

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 2396
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2009 at 19:27
Pirate talk is sort of a literary device in English, based on archaic language. It's how fictional pirates like Long John Silver talk in books and film. 
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Status: Offline
Points: 1064
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2009 at 19:29

Aha, I see. Just out of interest, which movie was it? Perhaps I could get the DVD.Big smile


Treasure Island (1934 film), 1934 film starring Jackie Cooper and Wallace Beery
Treasure Island (1950 film), 1950 Disney film starring Bobby Driscoll and Robert Newton
Treasure Island (1972 film), 1972 film starring Orson Welles
Treasure Island (1972 animated film), a 1972 film released by Filmation
Treasure Island (1988 animated film), 1988 Soviet animated film released by Kievnauchfilm
Treasure Island (1990 film), 1990 film starring Christian Bale and Charlton Heston
Treasure Island (1999 film), 1999 film starring Kevin Zeger and Jack Palance

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 2396
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2009 at 19:37

Wow ... there's a Soviet version of Treasure Island??? 

That's what I want to know ... in Russian, is pirate-talk possible? 

Slayer, I think they talk funny in all of those films. The most well-known version is probably the 1950 film.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.