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Forum LockedAbortion a human right?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 18:42
@Pinguin
 
In what stage of the production of an automobile, would you call it an automobile?
  • When it's only some sheets of metal?
  • When they start welding parts together?
  • Before or after the engine comes in?
  • Is a car a car without any wheels on it?

There surely isn't much of "auto" in any of those - nor is there any mobility.

I have a tremendous respect for human lives - and maybe especially for the unborn - and children.
That is why I will prefer abortion in cases where those who should care for the baby are unable to do so, no matter the reason - if the abortion happens at an early stage.
 
Like the unfinished automobile, any embroy has a value - but it's still not a human being.
How many pregnant women all over the world lose the embroy because of poor conditions?
Who should we blame for these abortions? - the climate? - the government? - the mother or maybe us?
On the same line - but even worse.
How many children starve to deat every day - we let them do it.... 
I call that late abortions and we are to blame. Why don't we help them? - we could if we would.
 
So yes - I can accept early abortion - there are plenty of children who suffer too much already.
 
And to complete the circle.... off topic...
There are so many people unfit to raise children, also in modern societies - for a huge number of reasons. Still they produce children who ends up on the street in crime and drugs or worse...
Maybe we should introduce a "Driving License" for having children, just like we have for the cars already mentioned.
Many, if not most people would flunk the test.
 
Ps.... sorry to butt in.
 


Edited by Northman - 17-Jun-2009 at 18:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 20:04
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Maybe we should introduce a "Driving License" for having children, just like we have for the cars already mentioned.
Many, if not most people would flunk the test.
 
Ps.... sorry to butt in.
 
 
Agree with you. When a couple (at least here in Sweden) shall adopt a child there is a lot of conditions (economical, social) that must be fullfilled before it is possible. But every drunk or pot head or whatsoever are allowed to give birth to a child.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 20:17
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

[
 
I can't believe that you, a self-name deffender of Indian rights, is at the same time a man that denies humanity in small babies.
 
That's so contradictory, that makes me think your love for Indians is symply hypocresy. For you is OK to send yours unborn babies to the garbage can, but it is fine to deffend Indian lives.
 
Double standard? 
 

Because I think it´s more important to give rights to people who are already born into this world than to embryos.

 

Many of those people in USA and other places who are running around screaming outside abortion clinics ought to engage in people already born. There are really a lot of people in this world that are sufffering from war, sickness, opression, genocide and famine that they could help.

There are also a lot of unwanted children in the streets of many big cities they could commit themselves to and help getting a better life.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 21:04
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

..Because I think it´s more important to give rights to people who are already born into this world than to embryos.
 
So you decide whom to give rights and who is more important? Embrios, as you call it, are humans. Besides, in your country doctors are killing 9 months old babies.... Are they just embrios? Hypocresy and double standard. That's all.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

..
There are also a lot of unwanted children in the streets of many big cities they could commit themselves to and help getting a better life.

 
There aren't unwanted children. Only children. If you society doesn't protect them is the fault of Sweden, not of the children.
 
Double Standard.
 
I won't continue this stupid discusion. Nobody will convince anyone else here. Let the history judge. People of the future always judge the crimes of people of the past. I bet what happens today with the abortion movement will receive the right label in the future: barbarism.
 
I won't answer in this thread anymore. Don't insist.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 21:24
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

So you decide whom to give rights and who is more important? Embrios, as you call it, are humans. Besides, in your country doctors are killing 9 months old babies.... Are they just embrios? Hypocresy and double standard. That's all.
 
I don´t descide, that is up to the lawmakers and also up to the woman who feels that she has to go through an abortion.
 
And in Sweden there is no abortions of 9 months old  babies. 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

There aren't unwanted children. Only children. If you society doesn't protect them is the fault of Sweden, not of the children.
 
Sweden don´t have especially many children in the streets. Such phenomena is much more common in Latin America.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 21:58
It's funny every-time Pinguin is confronted with actual facts he responds with sensational fiction or decides he will no longer post/respond.  The fact of the matter, Pinguin, is this; you ask Carcharodon why he gets to decide to whom to give rights but the same question can be asked of you.  Why do you get to decide who gets rights and who doesn't?  The person who gets to decide is the woman who is going to have the procedure done, that's the only person who matters in this equation.  You want to make a big stink about late term abortions fine but that doesn't make all abortion bad. 



*Edit: I have responded to Pinguin's last post in the new forum, so let's move the conversation over there.


Edited by King John - 17-Jun-2009 at 23:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 22:26
I just don't want to insult you guys. That's all.
Abortionist thinking makes me sick.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2009 at 01:34
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

@Pinguin
 
In what stage of the production of an automobile, would you call it an automobile?
  • When it's only some sheets of metal?
  • When they start welding parts together?
  • Before or after the engine comes in?
  • Is a car a car without any wheels on it?

There surely isn't much of "auto" in any of those - nor is there any mobility.

I have a tremendous respect for human lives - and maybe especially for the unborn - and children.
That is why I will prefer abortion in cases where those who should care for the baby are unable to do so, no matter the reason - if the abortion happens at an early stage.
 
Like the unfinished automobile, any embroy has a value - but it's still not a human being.
How many pregnant women all over the world lose the embroy because of poor conditions?
Who should we blame for these abortions? - the climate? - the government? - the mother or maybe us?
On the same line - but even worse.
How many children starve to deat every day - we let them do it.... 
I call that late abortions and we are to blame. Why don't we help them? - we could if we would.
 
So yes - I can accept early abortion - there are plenty of children who suffer too much already.
 
And to complete the circle.... off topic...
There are so many people unfit to raise children, also in modern societies - for a huge number of reasons. Still they produce children who ends up on the street in crime and drugs or worse...
Maybe we should introduce a "Driving License" for having children, just like we have for the cars already mentioned.
Many, if not most people would flunk the test.
 
Ps.... sorry to butt in.
 


Well, first it is increasingly difficult to deny the "humanity" of the fetus, and this is a scientific position, not a religious one. The shift in the debate, even among pro-abortion individuals, toward concepts of "personhood" demonstrates this.

That said, allow me to address your analogy, which I like better in as an introductory problem in a logic course than in the real world:

Item: When the automobile is composed of animate flesh and blood, rather than inanimate metal; when it has the potential to construct itself, relying on the worker only to provide a warm factory and raw materials; when it has the potential, when left to it's own devices, to develop into a fully fledged automobile without external action (we may have to wait on modern medical technology here); and finally, when it, as a fully assembled automobile, possesses consciousness, then I will consider your analogy valid -- although at such a point, I would hope that both you and I would be advocating for the right of sheet metal, bolts, welded parts, etc. Wink

Item: In light of the objection mentioned above, I would like to point out that while we cannot say that there is an automobile present in any of the early processes of assembly, the analogy is, once again, inadequate in dealing with the question of the child in the womb. We might say that there is a potential automobile present in the parts, but the corollary would be to say that the child in the womb is a potential "infant", "toddler", "teenager", "adult", etc.; we cannot deny its humanity from the time it begins to "assemble" itself.

Item:
The automobile does not possess the capacity or the potential to gain the capacity to make a choice as to whether or not it wishes to be assembled; the child in the womb is denied the right to make a decision as to whether or not he will continue to grow. Come to think of it, infants do not possess the capacity to make this decision either, and most of us would believe that children, while they may articulate such a desire, do not. How many people do you know, who are miserable, who would actually like to end their life? I do not deny that they are out there, and we may discuss that issue in the euthanasia thread, but the overwhelming majority of presently miserable people who choose to continue living argues that we might want to consider a bit before we make decisions for a child based upon his or her potential misery.

As for the misery in the world, I agree with you that it is lamentable. I am not willing to allow us to start murdering each other -- which is what we are doing now, in a variety of ways among which abortion is included -- to solve the problem. As for your suggestion of a "baby license", I haven't considered the idea before; my initial impression is negative, but I'll mull it over a bit and get back with you if you want. LOL

-Akolouthos





Edited by Akolouthos - 18-Jun-2009 at 01:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2009 at 05:03
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Besides, in your country doctors are killing 9 months old babies....

So that means you celebrate your day of conception rather than your birthday?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2009 at 05:13
Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Besides, in your country doctors are killing 9 months old babies....

So that means you celebrate your day of conception rather than your birthday?
 
Do you count yours since birth? Why not since you had concience, about 4 years of age.
Just let the liberated females, and theirs irresponsable lovers, to kill theirs babies up to four years old. After all, those things aren't concient as yet.
 
Jesus! I don't know why I lost my time with people that don't even understand the gross crime they are deffending.
 
It is like to convince a Roman it was wrong for gladiator to entertain people by killing each other. Or to convince a soldier it is wrong to kill humans.
 
Deaf ears.
 
Bye.
 


Edited by pinguin - 18-Jun-2009 at 05:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2009 at 11:43
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Well, first it is increasingly difficult to deny the "humanity" of the fetus, and this is a scientific position, not a religious one.
It's neither religious nor scientific. It isn't really ethical either, thogh that would be closer. Neither can it be claimed to be a logical conclusion (either way), because logical arguments leading to it are invariably circular - i.e. they depend absolutely on the initial assumptions, or they are initial assumptions themselves.
 
Basically it is simply a matter of arbitrary definition somewhere along the line, rather like defining a chrysalis as a caterpillar, or either as a butterfly. Or calling an egg a bird.
Quote
 The shift in the debate, even among pro-abortion individuals, toward concepts of "personhood" demonstrates this.
It denotes that it is seen as the central issue, but not that it is particularly 'scientific'. There's no way the personhood of a foetus can be empirically tested, so what we have is definitely metaphysical.
Quote
As for the misery in the world, I agree with you that it is lamentable. I am not willing to allow us to start murdering each other -- which is what we are doing now, in a variety of ways among which abortion is included -- to solve the problem.
That's begging the question. Of course we shouldn't murder each other because murder is by definition something we shouldn't do. Before you can argue that abortion should be included you have first to demonstrate that it is murder. Killing it undoubtedly is, killing a human it may be, but even if you accept the foetus as human, killing humans is not necessarily murder.
Quote
 
 As for your suggestion of a "baby license", I haven't considered the idea before; my initial impression is negative, but I'll mull it over a bit and get back with you if you want. LOL

-Akolouthos
Two problems with 'baby licences', one being who should grant (or deny) them and on what grounds, and the other being that driving licences don't stop drunken and careless driving.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2009 at 12:55
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

...You might as well draw the limit a little further and argue for a ban of masturbation. Those little creatures are potential humans too.
 
Don't be silly. There aren't rational shifting of the limits a "little bit further" to ridiculize the quality of humans of fetus. You well know life start at the conception.
 
By the way, I have some excelent pictures of a so called "partial birth". There, a 9 month fetus is decapitated, in orden women excercise theirs rights. I can send you them by private e-mail if you like. There you can see the big smile of the "mommy" Confused
 
 
 

You may call me silly, but I'm not the one stating something that's entirely arbitrary as a fact, whereas you do. The same way you do not consider a sperm a human, I don't consider a couple of cells a human either. I don't know when or how the foetus starts having a conciousness, but I'm completely sure you don't know either. I never talked about abortion of 9 month's babies, I think that's pretty horrible. I was talking about the very early stages, where I think it is up to the parents, and mother in particular, eg in cases such as rape.



Edited by Styrbiorn - 18-Jun-2009 at 13:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2009 at 15:59
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Besides, in your country doctors are killing 9 months old babies....

So that means you celebrate your day of conception rather than your birthday?
 
Do you count yours since birth? Why not since you had concience, about 4 years of age.
Just let the liberated females, and theirs irresponsable lovers, to kill theirs babies up to four years old. After all, those things aren't concient as yet.
You're right women should still be subjugated, they shouldn't vote, they shouldn't be in control of their bodies, they shouldn't be in the work force, they should be in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant making men tasty pies, and they should still be property for me to do with as they see fit (this was all sarcasm).  Get out of the 19th Century, chauvinistic attitudes dude.  This is a woman's issue, if she can make the decision for herself let her; she know what is best for her better than you do.  By the way killing a child that is four years old is different then aborting a fetus that is still in the womb.  The four year old is cognizant of the world, himself, and life unlike the fetus in the womb.  You like to compare apples and cars; when any rational person will see that the comparison is ridiculous. 
 
Quote Jesus! I don't know why I lost my time with people that don't even understand the gross crime they are deffending.
Yes, Pinguin, you are the only one that understands what is going on in the case of abortion.  
 
Quote It is like to convince a Roman it was wrong for gladiator to entertain people by killing each other. Or to convince a soldier it is wrong to kill humans.
History isn't about making moral judgments regarding the past.  In fact that is what a professional historian is trained not to do.  Who am I to say gladitorial games were wrong?

I have a hypothetical situation for you.  A woman is walking down the street minding her own business when out of the blue she is a attacked.  She is forced into a car and whisked away to some remote place.  While in the car she is raped and the sexual attacks only get worse in said remote place.  Her attacker never wears a condom or takes any precautions; he impregnates her.  After a week or two she realizes that she is late and her worst fears are confirmed.  She decides that she can't carry the child growing inside her to term and opts for an abortion. 

In this hypothetical situation what is wrong with the woman's actions?  Would you force the woman to carry the thing growing inside her to term?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2009 at 16:08
May I add my 2 cents
 
Its seems the real question is that if an "embryo" or "fetus" doesn't have any conciousness  can it be labled as a living. In my opinion ,No. Heres an example, that some may say is off topic they are group of individuals that  are desperately seeking the fountain of youth,I'm sure you've heard it  they store themselves in Cryogeneic Refirgerators and encapsulate themselves until one day (hopefully before an Iceage) someone will restore them back to life with a new body. HERES THE CATCH some participants volunteer their bodies while others volunteer their heads to be stored in freezing below zero staisis as cadavers.
The head of human stores the brain,where conciousness and unconcious human activities occur people consider this a very cruciial and most important part of the body in "HUMAN LIVING". Especially to those  who worship at the Scienctific Religion  altar.
 
 
---->>>1- Since a Cadaver would like to place his Brain and head in a Cryogenic Below Zero vessel, then he is undoubtedly unconcious,and  most definitely dead and would await  revival .Therefore if a baby has never had any conciousness it was not alive and has always been dead or as you say "UNBORN".
 
---->>>This touches on life issue itself. An unborn baby never had past memories or even had a lifes breath to be alive.Its is a human or potential human in the the Mathematical Zero Explanation but it is not alive.
 
 
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Murder, simple as that. Of course extreme cases need extreme measure (woman's health) but if the woman didn't want pregnancy why have sex in the first place? There are many methods to ensure that no pregnancy happens and these are simple, can be reversed and relatively cheap.
 
Al-Jassas
Maybe she was a harem, 
 
maybe an actress doing a blockbuster love scene who had a malfunction on set,
 
Maybe she is a refugee in another country and is barley living on what she has and no she cannot support another mouth to feed,
 
maybe she she is Serb and her father is Bosnian who had a romance but things just went wrong and could't stand to see her baby take sides,
 
maybe she is an indentured servant a slave who just had an ounce of freedom with a fellow captive and they both decideded they didn't want their children growing up they way they did.
 
Originally posted by xristar xristar wrote:

I'd say abortion should be allowed when baby is certainly going to suffer
4 -dubious-)any baby that its parents agree they don't want. What's the point of a baby getting born and have no parents to love it and care for it. Though I'd say, orphans fall also in this category, yet they often have quite normal lives. I'm not sure about No4
 
Exactly, I totally agree,"HOW COME THEY ARE NO LAWS AGAINST RELINQUISHING YOUR PARENTAL RIGHTS." I think it is nonsense that there is not one advocate against "parents making kids orphans" it is torture and unmoral for a mother to give up  her child, or a father to give up her child. The same Anti-Abortionist who call abortionist murders, have probably not understood torture or suffdering and belive me they are many people in 3rd world countries who would agree with abortion before they were born.
 
If you would not take in an adopted child ,then you have no right to speak out against abortionist.The  key factor here is life and suffering.
 
 
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

By the way, why should abortion be a human right while circumcision is on the edge of being banned (at least in Sweden)? There is no comparison between murder and cutting a piece of useless skin yet somehow a dogged campaign against circumcision is all over europe while abortion is OK?
 
AL-Jassas
 
LOL There is much humor in that.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

[
Should children be allowed to smoke on the grounds that as adults they might choose to? Should children not be vaccinated because it is a citizen's right to refuse vaccination?
 
Right and if a parent deems a potential life not to be sustainable then  he or she otherwise he and she can choose to retract from giving birth.Otherise it would be the parent taking care of this life,but as I said before it is not a live in the first place.
 
I don't mean offense to anyone but if any secretional fluid from your loins  missed that of your spouses womb during a love fling with high school sweetheart,an oversseas fling while on the tour of duty or a wild encounter with your wife in which you guys became very imaginative and creative  you are Abortionist your self.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Killing and dispossing theirs babies in the garbage they show they are really women. Then addopts an African child or a pet when they grow old, so someone cares from them at the time.
 
Well thats the whole point to stop this from occuring and of course you have women who are very pompous to abuse this privalege. Is it right, no.Can you stop it no. But at least  people who really need it, can make some use of it.This happpens with any privalage.
 
Isn't life support similar to this matter where a hospital or a family member has the right to take them off,well if making  sure a life grows and continues on is the interest of the  all certain governemts maybe they should make sure health care and donors are available to everybody.But that is another story isn't it .
 
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