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Forum LockedAbortion a human right?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 11:18
I don't think the issue is whether abortion is a human right but whether a foetus is a living breathing human who simply hasn't developed into one yet. The problem with abortion is that its strongest proponents are prepared to ignore the possibility that they are taking away a real life; and instead they spout empty rhetoric about the 'woman's body' and 'its only a bunch of cells'. The more important question is whether a foetus has human rights - which would mean abortion is a violation of human rights.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 11:22
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...All countries have their flaws. No country is extremely developed. But if one shall brag about ones country Sweden has got rather good scores in different UN listings concerning health care, women liberation, equality, the caretaking of children and similar.
 
 
Oh yes. And in porn production as well LOL

 

No. Stop repeating that nonsense myth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 11:32
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

So, you want to get into a good one, don't you?
 
Just interesting to hear what people think in this question.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Let's start.
 
The rigth to live is a human right.
 
Good so, but what if a woman gets pregnant because of a rape? Or if the bearing of a child threatens her own health or life?
 


I would note that only the second of your questions is salient given the gravity of pinguin's assertion.

I might drop in from time to time; we've had this conversation on here before, but I couldn't find a thread in the last year, so it is fine to open another one. I'll come back if the discussion advances beyond the simplistic, rehearsed opening statements that debates on this topic so often begin with.

-Akolouthos
 
Smile I tend to agree. But I'll just add that human rights, whatever they may be, are only possessed by humans, so pinguin's point (and maybe the whole question as posed) is somewhat definition-dependent. Moreover allowing people to exercise their rights is not always a good idea (or a bad one for that matter).


Which is why I don't particularly like the title of the thread; posing the question in such a way glosses over a discussion that we need to have in order to actually discuss the question, and doing so will lead to more "Yes!"/"No!" responses than anything else -- we might as well have a poll. LOL

I think the assertion that the child in the womb is not human has become increasingly scientifically untenable, which is why we have seen the debate over terminology shift into what defines a "person" rather than what defines a "human". The term "human being" is, to a great extent, a scientific term, while the term "person" is a social and legal definition.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 11:40
I forgot the right of the father, if the father is a partner, spous etc, he has as much right to the kid as the mother. 
 
By the way, why should abortion be a human right while circumcision is on the edge of being banned (at least in Sweden)? There is no comparison between murder and cutting a piece of useless skin yet somehow a dogged campaign against circumcision is all over europe while abortion is OK?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 11:45
Here is a discussion between the politician I refered to in beginning of this thread and an opponent from the christian party in Sweden. The first of these women is in favour of abortion as a human right and the other is against.
 
Unfortunately the debate is in Swedish but the arguments are the usual that one hear in most of these dabates:
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 12-Jun-2009 at 11:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 11:53
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

I forgot the right of the father, if the father is a partner, spous etc, he has as much right to the kid as the mother. 
 
By the way, why should abortion be a human right while circumcision is on the edge of being banned (at least in Sweden)? There is no comparison between murder and cutting a piece of useless skin yet somehow a dogged campaign against circumcision is all over europe while abortion is OK?
 
AL-Jassas
 
Wether one can define abortion as murder or not depends on if we regard an undeveloped embryo as a person or not.
 
The qeustion of circumcision is a rather unrelated question. Maybe that discussion is not so much about the skin itself but about if we shall accept religious practises that affects people physically in a secular society.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 12:06
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Wether one can define abortion as murder or not depends on if we regard an undeveloped embryo as a person or not.
 


I don't. It's the mother's right (with father's approval of course) to end the pregnancy if she doesn't want the baby. Also afaik you can't abort after some months when the baby is almost full formed so that should take care of the sensitive ones. You might think I am wrong but I don't think that a creature that lives off the woman's body is a person


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 12:52
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

I forgot the right of the father, if the father is a partner, spous etc, he has as much right to the kid as the mother. 
 
By the way, why should abortion be a human right while circumcision is on the edge of being banned (at least in Sweden)? There is no comparison between murder and cutting a piece of useless skin yet somehow a dogged campaign against circumcision is all over europe while abortion is OK?
 
AL-Jassas

Male circumcision is not on the edge of being banned - it's not even discussed. Female circumcision on the other hand, which in most cases have been shown to be a very dangerous practice, is banned. Many female organisations in Africa have sprung up to stop it. The aim to end this practices have also been adopted by the African Union. Anyhow, it's hardly comparable, as you say.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 12-Jun-2009 at 12:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 13:21
Originally posted by Vorian Vorian wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Wether one can define abortion as murder or not depends on if we regard an undeveloped embryo as a person or not.


I don't. It's the mother's right (with father's approval of course) to end the pregnancy if she doesn't want the baby. Also afaik you can't abort after some months when the baby is almost full formed so that should take care of the sensitive ones. You might think I am wrong but I don't think that a creature that lives off the woman's body is a person
 
I¬īm inclined to agree with you, but what I meant in above shown statement is that this is the way the reasoning goes in the debate. The time when one can call the embryo or fetus a person is disagreed about among many debatants.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 14:24
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

I forgot the right of the father, if the father is a partner, spous etc, he has as much right to the kid as the mother. 
 
By the way, why should abortion be a human right while circumcision is on the edge of being banned (at least in Sweden)? There is no comparison between murder and cutting a piece of useless skin yet somehow a dogged campaign against circumcision is all over europe while abortion is OK?
 
AL-Jassas
 
Wether one can define abortion as murder or not depends on if we regard an undeveloped embryo as a person or not.
 
The qeustion of circumcision is a rather unrelated question. Maybe that discussion is not so much about the skin itself but about if we shall accept religious practises that affects people physically in a secular society.
 


I'll agree that a definition of "person" and the religious or scientific comparison of that with an embryo needs further clarification (on this thread). Without religious knowledge how would we know when an embryo becomes a person anyway?

Being that circumcision is an adjunct to this discussion I'll hit upon that too.
...isn't it a secular citizen's right in choosing to keep his forskin or snip it off even if it were for health reasons?


Edited by Seko - 12-Jun-2009 at 15:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 14:25

We are in an age where the rights of those who cannot protect themselves are safeguarded in legislation, such as people with intellectual, physical and mental health issues. Nobody would argue that the protection of those that cannot be a voice for their own wellbeing in this sphere is wrong, yet there seems to be huge opposition when it comes to abortion.

 
Time after time the justification 'it's my body' is thrown about, but what does that actually mean? Inside that body, which is undoubtedly yours, is an unborn child that is the product of two people, 23 chromosomes each. This unborn child, in a safe abortion, must also be interfered with by a doctor or other healthcare professional in order to abort it. Therefore, for me, 'it's my body' is a weak excuse, because for three reasons, your body is not the only thing involved.
 
The question as to whether the unborn child is sentient or not when the abortion takes place, the 'bundle of cells' people talk about, is another much quoted excuse. For me, the use of a condom is ok, because you are stopping the interaction between the sperm and the egg, just like having a blue dream at night also doesn't cause pregnancy. There is no fundamental ethical issue there. But, when the sperm meets the egg, and implants itself into the lining of the womb (because before implantation the pregnancy is almost impossible in terms of success) for me, the unborn child has the full potential for growth and must be protected.
 
The only reason why any of us are here to argue about the ethical, moral, and personal implications of abortion is because we were not aborted, and are lucky enough to have lived long enough for symbolic thought. It's easy to say you think abortion is ok when you are here to say it, but why should we have the right to decide who and when the next generation comes into being? We simply don't have that right. I am not religious, but on this one issue I think that we need to consider very seriously the moral impact of abortion, especially because those that we are victimising don't have the voice to give us their side of the story.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 15:57
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

...and isn't it a secular citizens right in choosing to keep his forskin or snip it off even if it were for health reasons?
 
This issue of male circumcision is one I haven't heard discussed before. However, your argument there would mean that any medical procedure should never be carried out on a child because it is every citizen's right to decide what should be done with his body. How about snipping out the tonsils and adenoids? Or amputating a gangrenous limb? Or repairing a hare lip or cleft palate? Should children be allowed to smoke on the grounds that as adults they might choose to? Should children not be vaccinated because it is a citizen's right to refuse vaccination?
 
You have a responsibility for the welfare and health of your children (and failing that the state has). Personally I was circumcised as a child, not for any religious reasons but because it was deemed a healthful practice at least back in the '30s. I don't know what current medical opinion is but I'm pretty sure it has helped me avoid some infections and irritations that I might otherwise have suffered from.
 
I don't see a parallel with abortion at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 16:04
By George I agree. Don't see how you could have seen it any other way but you did. In response to the great man-eating shark I created my post as a thought provoking alternative to his stance. Wink Of course, we have a right as secular citizens to have a choice. Being that kids fall under the jurisdiction of their guardians it's the conscientious guardian who can make that choice as well. However, it looks as if you believe in the notion that medical procedures are not our choice and we don't have a say (I hope I misunderstood you). We are not forced to have a tonsillectomy or circumcision are we?


Edited by Seko - 12-Jun-2009 at 16:12
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Sorry. I guess i was suffering from a touch of the literals. Probably I should have been vaccinated against it as a kid Smile
 
 
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Smile I thought so. You're still the wisest literal around!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 16:22
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
Wether one can define abortion as murder or not depends on if we regard an undeveloped embryo as a person or not.
...
 
Another pro-abortion semantic trick. Angry
 
The matter is not if the child is a person or not. The problem is if it is a human being.
In my case, I am not going to judge the killings of babies that are practised by abortionist countries. I am only judging its HYPOCRESY.
 
If they allow to kill children inside the womb, why they send women to jail if they kill a four year old child? What's the difference?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cahaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 16:42
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
Wether one can define abortion as murder or not depends on if we regard an undeveloped embryo as a person or not.
...
 
Another pro-abortion semantic trick. Angry
 
The matter is not if the child is a person or not. The problem is if it is a human being.
In my case, I am not going to judge the killings of babies that are practised by abortionist countries. I am only judging its HYPOCRESY.
 
If they allow to kill children inside the womb, why they send women to jail if they kill a four year old child? What's the difference?


How can u categorize an incomplete form of human as a child? Unless abortion is done during the 6th - 9th mth of pregnancy.. In fact, it is dangerous for the mother to proceed with abortion procedure during that period.
Seriously, I don't agree with abortion in some extend but if it is necessary why not. Sounds inhuman, no doubt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 16:47
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
Another pro-abortion semantic trick. Angry
 
The matter is not if the child is a person or not. The problem is if it is a human being.
In my case, I am not going to judge the killings of babies that are practised by abortionist countries. I am only judging its HYPOCRESY.
 
If they allow to kill children inside the womb, why they send women to jail if they kill a four year old child? What's the difference?
 
Genetically the fetus is a human being, but then genetically a sperm or an egg is half a human being. But I can agree that the limit can be somewhat arbitrary. But a fairly undeveloped embryo are maybe not more human than a sperm is half human.
 
But according to some even the sperms are sacred Wink
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 12-Jun-2009 at 16:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 17:01
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
Genetically the fetus is a human being, but then genetically a sperm or an egg is half a human being.
 
That's false. You know that.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
 But I can agree that the limit can be somewhat arbitrary. But a fairly undeveloped embryo are maybe not more human than a sperm is half human.
 
 
Don't speak balooney. Sperm is not more human than mucus. A human being starts at conception.
 
So, the problem really is if people (or woman in particular), have the right of getting rid of human beings if they please.
 
Why don't you guys accept something as simple as that and state in laws?
 
In Sweden, murder of human beings are allowed before 9 months of age
 
Or are you guys scared that by recognizing aborting is murder, you get the evil genious out of the bottle? Who is next? The grandmother? the idiot of the family? The Black or the Jew?
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 12-Jun-2009 at 17:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 17:02
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Quote Recently, in connection with the election to the EU parliament, a female politician here in Sweden said that she thinks that the right to abortion is a human right and should be considered so also internationally.
Regardless of whether it is or should be legal or illegal, its not a human right.I can't stand it when someone pulls a human right out of their arse then demands that everyone follow it as a "international human right".In Australia, its a human right to have a telephone. I'm sure it'd be much appreciated if we started given other countries moral lectures about telephones.
Quote And some women also refer to this as a question specifically for women, and that men ought to have no saying in these matters.
It takes two to make a baby there should be two who have a say.Of course, if the man abandons the woman that is his say.

Once in a while we agree on something. Human life is sacred and even the doctor who was murdered by that nut case had a right to live. I wonder what part of Hell he is in?
Now that's just rude and insensitive.  He's going to hell because he provided women a legal service, that you don't agree with?  There is no Hell, in my religion at least, so I think he'll be in Heaven.  
Quote I wonder when they will start killing babies after birth because maybe they wanted a boy instead of a girl or maybe blue eyes.
This is a ridiculous statement and not the same thing as abortion or the thought process that goes into getting an abortion.  
Quote This is only my opinion but no it is murder plain and simple but say what you want I will not change my view but it is no wonder the western nations are dying and why they will be replaced with workers from 3rd world countries. How many aborted in the USA? Last I heard 45 million souls. It is reality in my country and I have to accept it but I believe the women should be required to go through counseling first and given all the options such as adoption first before she says yes to abortion.
People seem to be under the impression that women who choose to abort their pregnancies, for whatever reason, do it with little thought or not knowing their choices.  Do you know anybody who had an abortion?  One of my very close friends had one, she could hardly be said to have gone into it without knowing her options.  She was effected great deal by undergoing this procedure, mentally and physically.  The fact of the matter is that she was in no position to have a baby, no insurance, no familial support structure to speak of, no money with which to support the child after it was born.  She made the right decision for her.  She knew her options.  As a friend all I can do is support what ever decision she made, because that's what friends do.  If it were me in that position, would I do the same thing?  I don't know, maybe, maybe not.  All I know is that's one of the hardest decisions any woman will make in her life and she sure as hell doesn't need people telling her she a murderer or telling her that she can't make that decision.  A woman going through that procedure doesn't need to be made to feel any worse, she already feels horrible.  As you can probably tell I am pro-choice, I believe that as a man I have no right to tell a woman what she can and/or cannot do with her body.  The fact of the matter is that I will never have to make that decision so my say should not matter as much as her's does.  
Quote Will the time come when someone who has cancer will be killed, for the sake of mercy, even if they want to live. Ooops that did already happen in Florida-hmmmm Heck I am still young and if I should marry my new girlfriend we will have a quiver full of kids and love them.
She didn't have cancer she collapsed from respiratory and cardiac arrest and was diagnosed as being in a persistent vegetative state, if you're talking about the Terri Schiavo case.
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