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Forum LockedAbortion a human right?

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    Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 21:37

Recently, in connection with the election to the EU parliament, a female politician here in Sweden said that she thinks that the right to abortion is a human right and should be considered so also internationally. Many women (and also men) here in Sweden agree with her point of view. But some people also disagree, especially religios christians.

 

What do you think, is abortion a human right or is it something bad that should be forbidden?

 
 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 22:08

So, you want to get into a good one, don't you?

Let's start.

The rigth to live is a human right.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 22:09
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Recently, in connection with the election to the EU parliament, a female politician here in Sweden said that she thinks that the right to abortion is a human right and should be considered so also internationally. Many women (and also men) here in Sweden agree with her point of view. But some people also disagree, especially religios christians.

 

What do you think, is abortion a human right or is it something bad that should be forbidden?

 
 

 

Yes, Abortion is a human right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 22:25
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

So, you want to get into a good one, don't you?
 
Just interesting to hear what people think in this question.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Let's start.
 
The rigth to live is a human right.
 
Good so, but what if a woman gets pregnant because of a rape? Or if the bearing of a child threatens her own health or life?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 22:30
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

So, you want to get into a good one, don't you?
 
Just interesting to hear what people think in this question.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Let's start.
 
The rigth to live is a human right.
 
Good so, but what if a woman gets pregnant because of a rape? Or if the bearing of a child threatens her own health or life?
 


I would note that only the second of your questions is salient given the gravity of pinguin's assertion.

I might drop in from time to time; we've had this conversation on here before, but I couldn't find a thread in the last year, so it is fine to open another one. I'll come back if the discussion advances beyond the simplistic, rehearsed opening statements that debates on this topic so often begin with.

-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 22:38
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

?
 

I would note that only the second of your questions is salient given the gravity of pinguin's assertion.
-Akolouthos
[/QUOTE]
 
The first question can be elaborated on since unwanted pregnancies as a result of rape also can have serious repercussions for the womans health. Suicide is not unheard of under such circumstances.


Edited by Carcharodon - 11-Jun-2009 at 22:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 22:49
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:


I would note that only the second of your questions is salient given the gravity of pinguin's assertion.
-Akolouthos
 
The first question can be elaborated on since unwanted pregnancies as a result of rape also can have serious repercussions for the womans health. Suicide is not unheard of under such circumstances.


Then by all means, elaborate. Wink

I'd be a bit reluctant to kill one human being because of a remote and subjective potential threat to another, but various people have certainly sought to justify it often throughout history -- most recently in the case of the Iraq War. If you feel you can make a similar case here, feel free to do so.

-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 11-Jun-2009 at 22:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 22:50
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

.. 
Good so, but what if a woman gets pregnant because of a rape? Or if the bearing of a child threatens her own health or life?
 
Come on. You live in an extreme developed and progressist country, don't you? Confused
 
Never heared about the pill of the day after? That's legal even in very conservative countries that don't accept abortion.
 
The vaccum cleaner today is only preffered for those that enjoy human sacrifices. Angry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 23:01
Until the baby is born the mother has every right to terminate the pregnancy. Simple as that.

Edited by Vorian - 11-Jun-2009 at 23:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 23:15
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
Come on. You live in an extreme developed and progressist country, don't you? Confused
 
All countries have their flaws. No country is extremely developed. But if one shall brag about ones country Sweden has got rather good scores in different UN listings concerning health care, women liberation, equality, the caretaking of children and similar.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  Never heared about the pill of the day after? That's legal even in very conservative countries that don't accept abortion.
 
Nothing wrong with the pill of the day after. There are occasions though where it is impossible for a woman to resort to it.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  The vaccum cleaner today is only preffered for those that enjoy human sacrifices. Angry
 
Hmm, human sacrifice is somewhat hash word if you refer to abortion.
 
At the heart of this debate is of cource questions about when one can talk of a child, is it at the moment of conception, or is it when the cells in the embryo has diversified as much that they take on a human- like form? Or are even sperms and eggcells the progenitors to a later human and thus protectable?
 
The question many women asks and debates are if the embryo is a part of the womans body, and thus under her control,  or if it is and individual of it´s own, thus beyond the womans control. Many people, at least here considers the embryo being a part of the womans body until a certain point in it´s development when it can be considered an individual.
 
And some women also refer to this as a question specifically for women, and that men ought to have no saying in these matters.
Or as the woman politician, referred to above, put it: "this is a matter for the woman herself to descide, no other people shall interfer in that, least of all the Pope."
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 02:30
Originally posted by Vorian Vorian wrote:

Until the baby is born the mother has every right to terminate the pregnancy. Simple as that.
 
Why they don't have the right to kill theirs babies after born? What's the difference?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 02:39
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...All countries have their flaws. No country is extremely developed. But if one shall brag about ones country Sweden has got rather good scores in different UN listings concerning health care, women liberation, equality, the caretaking of children and similar.
 
 
Oh yes. And in porn production as well LOL
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...
Nothing wrong with the pill of the day after. There are occasions though where it is impossible for a woman to resort to it.
 
 
Balooney
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...  Hmm, human sacrifice is somewhat hash word if you refer to abortion.
 
 
True is hard.
 
I bet Romans believed killing gladiators for fun was a nice sport.
 
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
At the heart of this debate is of cource questions about when one can talk of a child, is it at the moment of conception, or is it when the cells in the embryo has diversified as much that they take on a human- like form? Or are even sperms and eggcells the progenitors to a later human and thus protectable?
 
 
Obviously somewhere after conception, but not much. Perhaps no more than hours. Otherwise, if you move the limit there is no arbitrary limit. If you don't believe so, it is more honest and less hypocrite to allow mothers to kill chidren at any age. An idea feminist law should read:
 
When child can live by themselves, which is around 16 years old. So, women should have the right to kill theirs children at any age, and in the way they want.
 
Progressive, isn't? Confused
 
A picture of Baal: AngryDeadDead
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 12-Jun-2009 at 02:42
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 02:49
Quote Recently, in connection with the election to the EU parliament, a female politician here in Sweden said that she thinks that the right to abortion is a human right and should be considered so also internationally.

Regardless of whether it is or should be legal or illegal, its not a human right.
I can't stand it when someone pulls a human right out of their arse then demands that everyone follow it as a "international human right".
In Australia, its a human right to have a telephone. I'm sure it'd be much appreciated if we started given other countries moral lectures about telephones.
Quote And some women also refer to this as a question specifically for women, and that men ought to have no saying in these matters.

It takes two to make a baby there should be two who have a say.
Of course, if the man abandons the woman that is his say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cahaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 03:29
It's a human right.. I agree.. mutual agreement between two persons who involved and with valid reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 05:10
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Quote Recently, in connection with the election to the EU parliament, a female politician here in Sweden said that she thinks that the right to abortion is a human right and should be considered so also internationally.
Regardless of whether it is or should be legal or illegal, its not a human right.I can't stand it when someone pulls a human right out of their arse then demands that everyone follow it as a "international human right".In Australia, its a human right to have a telephone. I'm sure it'd be much appreciated if we started given other countries moral lectures about telephones.
Quote And some women also refer to this as a question specifically for women, and that men ought to have no saying in these matters.
It takes two to make a baby there should be two who have a say.Of course, if the man abandons the woman that is his say.


Once in a while we agree on something. Human life is sacred and even the doctor who was murdered by that nut case had a right to live. I wonder what part of Hell he is in? I wonder when they will start killing babies after birth because maybe they wanted a boy instead of a girl or maybe blue eyes. This is only my opinion but no it is murder plain and simple but say what you want I will not change my view but it is no wonder the western nations are dying and why they will be replaced with workers from 3rd world countries. How many aborted in the USA? Last I heard 45 million souls. It is reality in my country and I have to accept it but I believe the women should be required to go through counseling first and given all the options such as adoption first before she says yes to abortion. Will the time come when someone who has cancer will be killed, for the sake of mercy, even if they want to live. Ooops that did already happen in Florida-hmmmm Heck I am still young and if I should marry my new girlfriend we will have a quiver full of kids and love them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 09:15
Murder, simple as that. Of course extreme cases need extreme measure (woman's health) but if the woman didn't want pregnancy why have sex in the first place? There are many methods to ensure that no pregnancy happens and these are simple, can be reversed and relatively cheap.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 09:31
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
Oh yes. And in porn production as well LOL
 
Sweden is a very small player in the field of pornography. USA, Japan, Germany produces an incomparable larger amount. The attitudes against porn among young Swedes are also starting to get harder and harder. More than 50% of Swedes between 18 and 25 want to outlaw porn completely.
One can in that context also mention that prostitution (or more specifically the buying of sexual services) already is outlawed here.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...  
Balooney
 
So there are never circumstances when a woman has no access to such a pill?
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 True is hard.
 
To what deity are these alleged sacrifices done?
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  I bet Romans believed killing gladiators for fun was a nice sport.
 
Unfortunately they did. Abortions though are not for fun but out of necessity.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 Obviously somewhere after conception, but not much. Perhaps no more than hours. Otherwise, if you move the limit there is no arbitrary limit. If you don't believe so, it is more honest and less hypocrite to allow mothers to kill chidren at any age. 
 
The limit can look different in different countries and in different laws but will always be somewhat arbitrary. But it is considered reasonable to set it before the fetus gains any higher functions. 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 09:41
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Murder, simple as that. Of course extreme cases need extreme measure (woman's health) but if the woman didn't want pregnancy why have sex in the first place? There are many methods to ensure that no pregnancy happens and these are simple, can be reversed and relatively cheap.
 
Al-Jassas
 
In principle I agree, it is better to use contraceptives, but if a woman gets pregnant and the child have no real future then abortion is an alternative.
 
I saw recently a program about prostitutes in the Phillipines. Some of them got pregnant in their "job". On the question why they didn´t use contraceptives they declared that God, or at least the church, didn´t like it. One can wonder if God, or the church, liked their job as prostitutes? On the question what they thought about the risk of being infected with HIV a couple of them looked surprised and asked what HIV was.
One can wonder if not abortion in some of these cases would be rather merciful instead of getting kids that are maybe already infected with HIV by birth and has no real future. But of course abortions are not legal in the Philippines.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 10:21
No it's not a human right.
Cahaya and Al Jassas covered what I wanted to say pretty well.
1)If a woman really wants to not get pregnant there are so many ways she can make sure.
2)A woman cannot kill a baby if the father does not agree. Since the baby has been concieved, it's not hers only, it's also part of its father.

I'd say abortion should be allowed when baby is certainly going to suffer somehow if it's born:
1)baby was concieved after sex without consensus (rape). Mother doesn't want a baby of her rapist
2)baby's gonna have medical issues (retard, criple etc). If that's clear during pregnancy, it can be spared the torture of living.
3)mother and father below 16 (or 18, depends) years old. It's really mean to force a baby to have immature and irresponsible parents, who propably won't stay together (broke family).
4 -dubious-)any baby that its parents agree they don't want. What's the point of a baby getting born and have no parents to love it and care for it. Though I'd say, orphans fall also in this category, yet they often have quite normal lives. I'm not sure about No4
5)If child threatens mother's life. Mother is first priority always.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 10:56
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

So, you want to get into a good one, don't you?
 
Just interesting to hear what people think in this question.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Let's start.
 
The rigth to live is a human right.
 
Good so, but what if a woman gets pregnant because of a rape? Or if the bearing of a child threatens her own health or life?
 


I would note that only the second of your questions is salient given the gravity of pinguin's assertion.

I might drop in from time to time; we've had this conversation on here before, but I couldn't find a thread in the last year, so it is fine to open another one. I'll come back if the discussion advances beyond the simplistic, rehearsed opening statements that debates on this topic so often begin with.

-Akolouthos
 
Smile I tend to agree. But I'll just add that human rights, whatever they may be, are only possessed by humans, so pinguin's point (and maybe the whole question as posed) is somewhat definition-dependent. Moreover allowing people to exercise their rights is not always a good idea (or a bad one for that matter).
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