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Forum LockedA slap in the face for Turkey?

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: A slap in the face for Turkey?
    Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 10:50
In another thread, xristar, triumphantdly declared ...

I love to see the overblown Turkey to bow humiliated before this great small state.

in relation to a recent diplomatic "victory" for the Greek Cypriot side which successfully lobbied EU states to impose Greek Cypriot demands as a condition for Turkish membership.

No, doubt xristar and many other Greeks would love to see Turkey humiliated and slapped. But before xristar goes on with his excultant celebration, I would like to bring to his attention, an article by Loukas Charambolous in the Greek Cypriot daily, Cyprus Mail:

Quote
A triple slap in the face for our government
(archive article - Sunday, June 11, 2006)
‘SLAP IN THE FACE’ is one of the most loved phrases of our politicians and journalists. Whenever there is a critical reference to Turkey by a foreigner they talk about the ‘slap in the face for Turkey’ and celebrate. Even a run-of-the-mill statement by a lowly-ranked diplomat is celebrated with the level of intensity that Brazilians celebrate winning a World Cup.

Nearly all the news media resort to the phrase ‘new slap in the phase for Turkey’ every time something unfavourable is said about the country, even if it is not related to the Cyprus problem in any way. A day rarely goes by without Phileleftheros carrying a report about a one or more slaps in the face for Turkey. If Turkey had actually received all the ‘slaps in the face’ that Phileleftheros has written about over the years she would have no face left, and have been more internationally isolated than Iraq was under Saddam.

This is why I have decided today to use the same phraseology in pointing out three thunderous slaps in the face we have suffered in the space of four days from various parts of the EU.


To read the article further:

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=26342&archive=1

Maybe if both sides were not that keen to "slap in the face", the Cyprus problem would have reached an amicable solution a long time ago, don't you think?


Edited by bg_turk - 15-Jun-2006 at 10:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 16:28
what were the other 2 slaps?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 13:15
bg_turk, Greece and Cyprus were 'humiliated' when Turkey invaded the island in 1974. Greece did not intervene, but the Turks saw it as a victory over us (which it was).
In Cyprus you know what happened? The small outdated Cypriot army ( 'Ethniki Froura'='National Guard'), after being unable to work properly  due to the coup from Athens, after being bombed to almost complete disorganization by the unbothered turkish air force, after being unable to throw the Turks in the sea during Attila I, they saw the 6th Turksih corps, with marines and paratroopers (40,000-50,000 troops, 200 tanks, rocket artillery 'Cobra', against two functioning battalions of 350 men, some thousands of totally disorganized soldiers, and 11 WWII T-34 Soviet tanks!) land on their island, ignore the UN that were consulting, and capture the area which produced the 70% of the islands income. 1/3 of the total population of the island were refugees. It's like having 20,000,000+ refugees in Turkey! The Cypriot republic controled (controls) only 54% of the island! The country collapsed. Nothing worked as supposed, with a huge homeless unemployed refugee population to be taken care of by the state. And all these 30 years, no one was hearing Cyprus. Turkey has put her forces on the island on a constant offensive formation, and with her military might threatened Cyprus and Greece.
And now finally, Cyprus stands in a position of power towards Turkey. Now Turkey will realize how it is to compromize because you can't do else. And notice, Cyprus has not exploited her position. Her requests have been very reasonable, and were predicted by the entry agreement. What Cyprus does is to insist on these standard requirements.
 
I said overblown, and I beleive it, because Turkey threatens us based on her military numbers. But what about training, what about morale, what about proffessionalism? They did not fight with us in 1974, they fought with the army of Cyprus, which was more like a militia. And still they showed their inability. The lost 54 airplanes (officially), 27 by anti air fire, and 27 on ground!! They sunk their own ship, killing like 200 turkish sailors. And yet with no Greek participation, no aircrafts, no tanks. So, I say they are overblown, they feel they are stronger than they really are.
 
I think I've explained my feelings, and I hope that even if you disagree -your right- you understand that our point of view is not a fanatic anti turkish joy. Here in Greece we respect war, probably because we had it much more recently and with huge losses in many aspects.

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 14:56
The Greek narrative in Cyprus always starts after 1974 with the "unprovoked" Turkish invasion as if things were going perfectly fine before then, so I forgive xristar for missing the entire history before 1974...

But if xristar wanted to be fair, he (or she?) would have also also told us what happened before 1974 too.

He would have told us that before 74 Cypriots were suffering, not just loss of lands and property but also death and fear.  This suffering was ongoing in 1974. Without the Turkish military action this suffering would not have ended.

He would have told us that Cypriots were crammed into enclaves, terrorized by EOKA thugs.  A minority was under siege by the vastly
greater majority

He would have told us that his EOKA heroes instead of facing the Turkish army to the north, turned on innocent Cypriot civilians and killed them en masses in Atillalar and Sandallilar.

He would have told us that his country did everything possible to destory the Republic of Cyprus and make it a province of Greece, that it stoked the flame of intercommunal violance, that it engineered a coup against the legitimate Cypriot government and installed the puppet regime of Sampson, a sick nationalist who boasted with "pushing Turks into the sea.

If he tried to be fair, xristar would have told us that Greece sent her troops and thus invaded the island before any Turkish soldier set foot on the island ...

and all of this happened despite Turkey's constant proteststations, despite her calls on Britain for a joint action to stop the violations against the Cypriots of Turkish origin. Turkey, a country
just 40 miles to the North, thretened with millitary actions time and time again but all threats, pleas and calls fell on deaf ears.

In fact so convinced were the generals in Athens in their own superiority and master plan of annexation of Cyprus to Greece, that when David Tonge, BBC correspondent in Athens, rang up the Greek Ministry of Information and told them that the Turkish navy had put to sea, the man at the other end told him, confidently: 'There is nothing to worry about. The Turks have formed a habit of going out to sea every year or two just to breathe Mediterranean air and then return home.' Athens was clearly in the hands of venturesome and irresponsible people.

When Turkish troops finally landed in Cyprus, no more Greek troops showeed up to protect the Greek Cypriots, Greece abandoned them, all her past pledged turned out to be nothing more than hot air and rhetoric. When one flies too high in the air, certainly humiliation is unavoidable.

Turks certainly committed war crimes, but for Turkish Cypriots they were saviors from the decades of oppression under Greek rule. The 50,000 of Turkish Cypriots who were escorted under UN protection from the South never even looked back, for at last now they had their own homeland, where they would once and for all be safe from the EOKA thugs.

More than half of the population of the TRNC was made of refugees. Its like having 30,000,000 refugees in Turkey! For decades the people of the TRNC suffered deprivation, isolation and embargoes - they were totally forgotten and ignored by the world. Some of them were made refugees not once, nor twice but even three times from the preceeding decades of itnercommunal violance.


On the other hand the Greek Cypriots usurped the title of the Republic of Cyprus which they were supposed to share with Turkish Cypriots.
They cheated their way into the EU by false promises of supporting a settlement, only to reject the UN settlement plan with a resounding 'OXI' and a bitter slap in the face of Turkish Cypriots, who despite all they suffered, were naive enough to extend their hand in peace.

Turkish Cypriots accepted a plan, that would ceade territories to the Greek Cypriots, a plan that would make some Turkish Cypriots refugees for a third time, but alas Greek Cypriots, in the hope of exploiting their EU membership for further concessions from the Turks, said No to reunifcation.

No doubt past wrongdoings against innocent Greek Cypriots should be reversed, and those of them who want to live in the North and claim their properties back should be welcome to the TRNC. But there is also no doubt that partition is sealed. ENOSIS is now yours to have...




Edited by bg_turk - 16-Jun-2006 at 15:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 15:08
Beware, Komnenos is coming...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 16:43
Quote The Greek narrative in Cyprus always starts after 1974 with the "unprovoked" Turkish invasion as if things were going perfectly fine before then, so I forgive xristar for missing the entire history before 1974...
I don't know how things were going for the Turkish cypriots, but for the Greek cypriots they were better.
Quote he (or she?)
He. (Btw, I always wondered how many are the girls in these forums)
Quote
He would have told us that before 74 Cypriots were suffering, not just loss of lands and property but also death and fear.  This suffering was ongoing in 1974. Without the Turkish military action this suffering would not have ended
Again, its obviously the turkish cypriot minority you are reffering to. And weren't they organized in their own 'country' inside Cyprus? Still, I won't say you're a liar because I don't know about this. I really don't, it's not an excuse...
Quote He would have told us that his EOKA heroes instead of facing the Turkish army to the north, turned on innocent Cypriot civilians and killed them en masses in Atillalar and Sandallilar.
Are you reffering to the invasion? Which are the Atillalar and Sandallilar? (They certainly are known with their Greek names here). And the EOKA were not responsible for the defense of the island. The cypriot army was. Ah, and EOKA B' (I assume) are not my heroes.
Quote
If he tried to be fair, xristar would have told us that Greece sent her troops and thus invaded the island before any Turkish soldier set foot on the island ...
If bg_turk wanted to be fair, he would admitt that the transportation of Greek troops was hardly an invasion. It was a response to Turkey declared aggresiveness. During the conflicts of 1964 Turkey was bombing the island! Greece never took action on the island. The transported division was there for the protection of the island against a turkish invasion. And it left after Turkish protests in 1967.
Quote and all of this happened despite Turkey's constant proteststations, despite her calls on Britain for a joint action to stop the violations against the Cypriots of Turkish origin. Turkey, a country just 40 miles to the North, thretened with millitary actions time and time again but all threats, pleas and calls fell on deaf ears.
Are you now defending or accusing Turkey? You are saying it, Turkey was threatening! And by the way, Mersina was about 100 miles from the landing point, -not that it matters.
Quote In fact so convinced were the generals in Athens in their own superiority and master plan of annexation of Cyprus to Greece, that when David Tonge, BBC correspondent in Athens, rang up the Greek Ministry of Information and told them that the Turkish navy had put to sea, the man at the other end told him, confidently: 'There is nothing to worry about. The Turks have formed a habit of going out to sea every year or two just to breathe Mediterranean air and then return home.' Athens was clearly in the hands of venturesome and irresponsible people.
I agree. Athens was in the hands of irresponsible men. No doubt about that, it was proven by their reactions.
Quote When Turkish troops finally landed in Cyprus, no more Greek troops showeed up to protect the Greek Cypriots, Greece abandoned them, all her past pledged turned out to be nothing more than hot air and rhetoric. When one flies too high in the air, certainly humiliation is unavoidable.
Greece had ageneral mobilization of her forces. Armoured units went to their starting positions to take Karagats and Adrianople (Edirne?). But, as you said, the heads in Athens were irresponsible. My grandfather, personal friend (as Chief of the Army, later) of Karamanlis, told me, 'He was a traitor. He cared for his chair'. Fair and square. What could you expect then?
Quote On the other hand the Greek Cypriots usurped the title of the Republic of Cyprus which they were supposed to share with Turkish Cypriots. They cheated their way into the EU by false promises of supporting a settlement, only to reject the UN settlement plan with a resounding 'OXI' and a bitter slap in the face of Turkish Cypriots, who despite all they suffered, were naive enough to extend their hand in peace
Turkish Cypriots accepted a plan, that would ceade territories to the Greek Cypriots, a plan that would make some Turkish Cypriots refugees for a third time, but alas Greek Cypriots, in the hope of exploiting their EU membership for further concessions from the Turks, said No to reunifcation.
Oh, please! Who do you think you are talking to? Some third person who knows nothing? The plan was a trap! It was just making official the current situation. What compromizes would the Turks do? Give some -very little- empty land? And Cyprus would disband her whole army? The plan was totally unfair. I feel ashamed for my governemnt which for to improve her relationships with Turkey literally sacrificed Cyprus, supporting the plan (even though the Greeks didn't).
Quote ENOSIS is now yours to have...
I like the way words like 'ENOSIS' and 'MEGALI IDEA' irritate you Turks. As if they mean something weird. Enosis is union, a privilege that actually turkish cypriots 'enjoy'. You know why the Cypriots would like to unite with us? Not in peace time, because they are richer than us, and because they like to have their own government. But in war time, as in 1974, they would like to have Greek tanks, and Greek air planes, and Greek infantry to counter the Turkish. The turkish Cypriots are safe behind 50,000 Turkish soldiers, illegally there. The Greek cypriots are on their own, with their 11,000 soldiers, without air force or navy. And you know that Turkey wouldn't 'allow' Greece to transport her own army over to Cyprus. 
 
It's obvious who is right and wrong. Perhaps the turkish cypriots were supressed, but the reason was not the 'hatred' of the greek cypriots, it was that Turkey who got into the internal matters of Cyprus that burnt them. It's the same with what would happen if Turkey started arming Bulgarian Turks, declaring things, threatening. Do you thing Bulgaria would let this be? You would feel on your own what actual impact the imperialist dreams of 'mama Turkey' have on the minority populations. Turkey is using them as cards. Then she played the turksih cypriot card. Now she seems willing to play the muslims of western thrace card, in order to lift the international pressure on her, for being a supressive undemocratic state. Turkey is trying to strangle the Patriarchate of Constantinople, the Ecumenical, an institution 17 centuries old. And funny thing is: Greek church is independent from the Patriarchate! The Patriarchate actually controls less than half of Greece (and in fact it unwillingly shares control with the Greek church) and some other small churches around the globe, like the missionaries in Africa and such.

 

 


Edited by xristar - 16-Jun-2006 at 16:48

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 17:07
1. Atilalar and Sandalilar (not sure if I spell them correctly) were Turkish Cypriot villages which suffered massive massacres in 1974 by EOKA thugs.

Here is a documentary by Antonis Angastiniyotis on the Turkish Cypriot civilian losses during the conflict. You need realplayer:
(100 mBs) http://www.atcanews.org/movies/atrocities.rm

Or if you cannot download it you can check this site:
http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/birgin%20-%2074%20narratives.htm

2. Was the UN settlement plan fair? I think it was, and many countries including the UK, USA and the UN endorsed it. But this is irrelevant now. The plan is null and void since it was rejected by the South, and with it the  prospects of unifications are quickly dying as well.

3. So you like irritating us with 'ENOSIS' and 'MEGALI IDEA'. To be honest I am not irritated, because you are shooting yourself in the leg with this nationalistic rhetoric. By supporting Enosis, which was the cause for  the Cyprus conflict in the first place, you are nullifying any prospects for unification and sealing partition.


4. There is no reason for me to get armed in Bulgaria. Bulgaria is now a place of law and human rights are respected. I feel safe there,  I have Bulgarian friends, get along well with them. In 1974  Turkish Cypriots  were driven into enclaves and hunted down like animals, so they fought. I could have fought against Bulgaria in the 80s when they changed our names, but not now. What difference does it make after all whether I live in Bulgaria or Turkey?



Edited by bg_turk - 16-Jun-2006 at 17:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 17:12

Looks like another Cyprus topic guys. You know the procedure. So here is the yellow card.

Copyright © 2004 Seko
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