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Forum LockedA Massive Hinduism Timeline

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    Posted: 05-May-2007 at 00:32
Originally posted by kshtriya-Mer

Originally posted by SpartaN117

Sorry to disappoint you.

But Indus Valley and Mehragh culture were not Hindu. They arent even in India, they are both in Pakistan.

 

Sorry to disappoint you Spartan. But Pakistan has only been around for the last 50 years. And what is Hinduism it’s a mixture of ideas and philosophies which a few books that are central to the religion. The Indus vally people were Hindu they did after all practise Shivism  

 

 



I never get tired of ignorant people like you roaming around.

There is absolutely no evidence of any kind of Hindu activities in IVC, except for Indian historians who seem to be able to travel in time.
 However there is evidence of Cow meat eating and Burials.
Go figure.

And India is the same age as Pakistan, in fact Pak is a day older.
And there was no land called "India" until the 19th century, let alone 5000 years ago, so please dont go around thinking there is anything such as "Ancient India": Its all imaginary my friend.

Read it and weep.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Azat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2007 at 01:37
Originally posted by kshtriya-Mer

Originally posted by SpartaN117

Sorry to disappoint you.

But Indus Valley and Mehragh culture were not Hindu. They arent even in India, they are both in Pakistan.

 

 The Indus vally people were Hindu they did after all practise Shivism  

 

 
The Indus valley people followed a fertility cult  of Scythian and that may have later gave birth to shaivism but it was not Hinduism as the same religion was followed by Elam people but they were never called Hindus .
 
Hinduism is basically Brahmanism of central Indian priestly class ,based on
puranic and other literature  like  manu sanhitas etc ,it did have  influences from northwestern religion of scythian which you may call vedic or proto saivism , but these people of northwest were never followers of bramnical influence of central India that later was called Hinduism .


Edited by Azat - 05-May-2007 at 01:40
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2007 at 07:35
Originally posted by SpartaN117


I never get tired of ignorant people like you roaming around.

Personal attacks are strictly off limits Sparta. Consider this an informal warning.
"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor
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Post Options Post Options   Quote vijay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2007 at 11:08
Spartan , you seemed very ignorant and u sound ultra Islamic ....
 Seal with Pasupathi(lord of the beasts : -Lord SHiva) has been found which prooves beyond doubt the the Shiva worship and Hinduism ...
.
Sparten you ignorant fool, do not except in these forums you tell all these thigns you have posted when you are in the company of scholars if ever you do, you would become a public joke ......

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Post Options Post Options   Quote SpartaN117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2007 at 14:09
Originally posted by vijay

Spartan , you seemed very ignorant and u sound ultra Islamic ....
 Seal with Pasupathi(lord of the beasts : -Lord SHiva) has been found which prooves beyond doubt the the Shiva worship and Hinduism ...
.
Sparten you ignorant fool, do not except in these forums you tell all these thigns you have posted when you are in the company of scholars if ever you do, you would become a public joke ......



I suppose the "insult" rule is only for Pakistanis. no matter.

But seriously, why ignore every major ritual and look at a fuzzy drawing to prove the people of the region were hindu? Have you heard of the times Indian "scholars" made a laughing stock of themselves by trying to prove this hinduism claim?

The drawing is not of Shiva, its of a person sitting down. There is nothing more to it.

Its funny that you would refer to yourself as a "scholar" and not even know this. The indus valley is 2000 years older than the rigvedas. There is no link between them. Forget about it already.

Western Scholars heavily criticize Indian attempts to Hindufy the Indus Valley. Its not going to work. Most of these claims saw daylight in the past 2 decades.
Bad timing for political agendas, since everything covered on the internet.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote SpartaN117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2007 at 14:12
And why do I sound "ultra Islamic". I am pretty sure this post if the first where I even mention Islam or Muslims.

I am not even creating any sort of link between Indus valley and Islam.

Please clarify your intelligent claims.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote vijay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2007 at 02:37
Now Sparten, it is so sad, that you cannot provide one shred of evidence of those so called western scholars that you seemed to trumpet , about their denial of Indus valley civilization being Hindu......
.
That is not just man sitting, he has a name and he is called Lord Pasupathi(Lord of the beasts Lord Shiva), and cite one so called scholar from your assembly of scholars who says contrary to that, ???
.
If that is not enough, the phallus worship is extensively found in the IVC
Another point that might indicate the Harappan's being a Vedic culture is the discovery of fire altars at several Indus sites. Fire rituals and sacrifice were an important part of Vedic religious practices. But what was significant about these alters, is that they were aligned and constructed in the same manner as later discovered altars were. The fire altars were then Vedic in construction indicating that the Harappan's were a Vedic culture...
.
Hope rather than rubbishing this facts as some Ultra Hindutva propaganda I hope you do that by citing acceptable research of the so called western scholars that you have boasted off.......
.
And man somwhere I do not know what intelligence prompted you that It is Indus river, sorry man the RIG veda describes Sarasvathi river and with the satellite images of dried river bed of Sarasvati and all IVC sites located along the path of this river, it is sarasvathi river that Rig veda describes and the ruins of IVC located along the the banks of river sarasvathis and its tributaries, Vedic and IVC  are quite interweaved with each other.....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SpartaN117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2007 at 17:34
Ok, you want to debate this? I dont know why I am even answering this, since the whole "IVC was Hindu" has already been settled, and classed as hindutva propaganda. But here goes.

Answer these questions.

What happened to the 2000 or so missing years between the disappearance of IVC and the rigvedas.

Why did the people of IVC bury their dead

Why did the people of IVC eat cow meat

Sarasvathi river is imaginary, even if it was real, why is the Capital and the biggest city (harappa and mohenjo daro) nowhere near this river.

And as for the dravidian theory, apart from the fact that its hindutva myth, why does this theory completely ignore the arayns in the region? Where do they fit into this?

Why did the dravidian people not leave any evidence in northern India if they really did travel from Pakistan to south India?

Even if the IVC were dravidian, why ignore Pakistani Brahuis (sp?)? Surely they are closer to the IVC than south Indians.

There are 100s of flaws in hindutva theories, and thats the reason they became a laughing stock for the western historians.

Dont follow their foot steps.


Edited by SpartaN117 - 08-May-2007 at 17:36

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Post Options Post Options   Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2007 at 19:51
while i'm not here to defend vijay, i can answer some of those questions:

Vedic peoples DID bury their dead.
Vedic peoples DID eat cow meat.
Whether the Vedic people were "Aryan" in a racial sense cannot be proven.

So three of your questions (#2, 3, 5) are answered.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote vijay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2007 at 10:42
Originally posted by SpartaN117


What happened to the 2000 or so missing years between the disappearance of IVC and the rigvedas.

What is the date of the rigveda??????
Rig veda mentions river sarasvati
The proto-historic people he refers to are the early Harappans of 3000 BC. But satellite 'photos show that a great prehistoric river that was over 7 kilometers wide did indeed flow through the area at one time. This was the Saraswati described in the Rig Veda. Numerous archaeological sites have also been located along the course of this great prehistoric river thereby confirming Vedic accounts. The great Saraswati that flowed "from the mountain to the sea" is now seen to belong to a date long an terior to 3000 BC. This means that the Rig Veda describes the geography of North India long before 3000 BC. All this shows that the Rig Veda must have been in existence no later than 3500
Rig veda is not a just a book of stories, it contains astronomical observations, these astronomical observations cannot be mythical but observant and these date back to the earlier stages of Indus valley civilization.
.
According to some archaeologists over 500 Harappan sites have been discovered along the dried up river beds of the Ghaggar-Hakra River and its tributaries,[21] in contrast to only about 100 along the Indus and its tributaries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization

Originally posted by SpartaN117


Why did the people of IVC bury their dead

They also cremated their dead leading to its recording in the vedas which suggest a continuation of culture
"
the earlier phases of their culture, the Harappans buried their dead; however, later, especially in the cemetery H culture of the late Harrapan period, they also cremated their dead and buried the ashes in burial urns"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization

Originally posted by SpartaN117


Why did the people of IVC eat cow meat

   It seems you have mistaken for vedic people than IVC, the argument that Vedic people ate cow is an argument out of wrong translation, even if they ate what does it proove, it prooves nothing as their is no evidence of  IVC people's eating habits..
. If you want to argue that As the composers eat meat they cant be Hindus or or of vedic culture it is a futile argument,  first let the scholars sort what translation is correct..
Originally posted by SpartaN117


Sarasvathi river is imaginary, even if it was real, why is the Capital and the biggest city (harappa and mohenjo daro) nowhere near this river.

According to some archaeologists over 500 Harappan sites have been discovered along the dried up river beds of the Ghaggar-Hakra River and its tributaries,[21] in contrast to only about 100 along the Indus and its tributaries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization
1021 cities and population centers have been found along the banks of sarasvathi river and its tributaries..Sarasvathi river is no myth, it is described in the rig veda clearly with its name and the satellite imagery proves that infact there was a large river flowing on the dried banks of which many of the ruins are located..

Originally posted by SpartaN117


And as for the dravidian theory, apart from the fact that its hindutva myth, why does this theory completely ignore the arayns in the region? Where do they fit into this?

 Because  the theory does not ignore aryans because there were hardly any aryans . arya mean noble ..thats it it doesn't mean anythig other than that and most scholars agree with that except racists scholars may be to misappropriate achievements of the vedic people and feel a sense of false pride, You shopuld have framed the question in a better way though

Originally posted by SpartaN117


Why did the dravidian people not leave any evidence in northern India if they really did travel from Pakistan to south India?

  This theory is based on Aryan Invasion  theory, how Could I tell about a theory I do not endorse, the people of indus valley travelled no where after the drying up of river sarasvathi, the settlements could no longer sustainable they moved into the river banks some moved to the gangetic plain, and some to the west....


Originally posted by SpartaN117


Even if the IVC were dravidian, why ignore Pakistani Brahuis (sp?)? Surely they are closer to the IVC than south Indians.

 These terms of dravidian were later evolved terms to propagate Aryan Invasio theory, no evidence of Invasion has ever been found, so the AIT theorirst fell back of Aryan Migration theory, god knows how long they can stick to it because some it is being contested as the vedas can only be attributed to a setteled people not a migrating people, because, as the Vedas were orally transmitted the places of this migration should have been memorised but nothign of this sort is recorded in the vedas , vedas all describe the geographical location of Indus valley...If they had migrated, where is the memory of those places from where they have arrived..

Originally posted by SpartaN117


There are 100s of flaws in hindutva theories, and thats the reason they became a laughing stock for the western historians.

 Unfortunately these supposed 100's of flaws are very few not even in 10's but compared to AIT and AMT they count to nothing, where AIT is completely based on Linguistic theory but with no actual archeological evidence, AMT emerged because AIT is no longer sustainable with new archaeological, evidences emerging , thank God that Vedic people described the geograpy and astronomy which is the major reason forthe dismantling of AIT and sooner AMT will also be dismatled because no where in the Vedas they describe a place other than the indus valley regions, and no where they address any migration trail, and with the Vedas astronomy effectively places and disapproves the rig veda date to be 1500BC....Even Max Muller is not sure about it hahaha,

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Post Options Post Options   Quote vijay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2007 at 10:54

The people of the Indus Civilization achieved great accuracy in measuring length, mass and time. They were among the first to develop a system of uniform weights and measures. Their measurements were extremely precise. Their smallest division, which is marked on an ivory scale found in Lothal, was approximately 1.704mm, the smallest division ever recorded on a scale of the Bronze Age. Harappan engineers followed the decimal division of measurement for all practical purposes, including the measurement of mass as revealed by their hexahedron weights.

These brick weights were in a perfect ratio of 4:2:1 with weights of 0.05, 0.1, 0.2, 0.5, 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, and 500 units, with each unit weighing approximately 28 grams, similar to the English Imperial ounce or Greek uncia, and smaller objects were weighed in similar ratios with the units of 0.871. The weights and measures later used in Kautilya's Arthashastra (4th century BC) are the same as those used in Lothal.[27]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization

Vedic civilization is the continuation of IVC the maths used behind the IVC constructions are later found in the vedic literature of India
.
What do you think World famous Indian mathematics originated from the sky,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_mathematics#Harappan_Mathematics_.283300_BCE_-_1500_BCE.29
visit that site ..and learn something about the math behind IVC and vedic math is precisely the continued development from the IVC age
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Azat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2007 at 07:20

Sorry Vijay you are not sure what you want to say let me ask you clearly..

 
Do you want to say that Indus Valley civilization was a civilzation of tamilians ,Keralites ,karnataka people  broadly referred as Dravidian or ????
 
You want to say that basically  Dravidian and northwestern people of Indian and Pakistani Punjab are from the same racial stock let us first know what you want to say so that we can argue later.
 
PS   These Dravidian theories of IVS are Big bullsh*ts and only a propaganda of hindutava lobby to claim the heritage of people that lived in northwestern part of this continent from IVS to present times.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote docsavage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 12:35
Irony, With historical events ,when bias-prejudice-self interest-a  false sense of belonging-and above all, that ego, which by instinct wants to defend the self,a true story never emerges.
 
lost in rhetoric and flawed conclusions, the arguments ,perheps would never end.Those who decide to judge history by such an approach merely mystify mislead and mar the entire outcome, they so dillingently attempt to bring forth.Never forget what the word "circa" means. As late as Budha" timeline is often in dispute, who can with certanity say what happened thousands upon thousands years ago.
 
A scholer is one ,who schools self above such biases and attempts to collaborate and unifies the bits and pieces that each one comes up with.
 
Good luck with indivdualistic. self centered and prejudiced efforts. Who knows something good may come out of this too.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote docsavage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2009 at 12:53
How old Vedic Era is, when did the so called Aryans came in waves and how they conquered-controlled- killed or captured the lowely natives ?  Where they came from and why the so did? are questions that form the basis of all debate. In other words its an ongoing war of the the two opposing elements neither can or will surrender.
 
For almost 8 years now i have read Rig Ved from its first Sukta to the last for times i cant even count. Have with microscopic eye,read all the english versions as well the Hindi ones.Do i say that i have found the answers, or have come to any conclusion? No i have not. Then i ask meself. Why so? The why part i find easy to answer.
 
Based upon all the propoganda and quotes and misquotes- defences and attacks- relying upon translations by Westereners- the illusive and biased interpretations those who attempt to pick the bone at their most favoured spot get only what they want. Not what the entire is made up of. To continued------
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
w
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2009 at 20:32
That timeline sure has a odd viewpoint on it.  Read bias, propoganda, ''revisionist history'' Lol.   maybe we should make a new section on this forum, the way we ''wished'' history unfolded lol!.
 
The Ancient Indus Valley civilization was Not Dravidian, this was clearly re-iterated and proven by DNA analysis of the remains of the people as well as the current population and on many occasions in the past by key excavations, international historians/experts and most notably by Professor Dani himself, the leading pioneer and expert on the civilization.  Infact he worked alongside Mortimer Wheeler when major excavations where done on the civilization.  His account and research, clearly discounted such a link.  Secondly, the Indus Valley Civilization takes its name from the Indus river, despite repeated attempts to ''alter'' its name for ultra-nationalist reasons and biasis and link it to a mythological river in a different region that doesnt exist despite attempts by sourcing sketchy and inconclusive geological surveys.  How such revisionist inflate an ancient culture and claim such a far spread which even by modern standards is rare is beyond comprehension.  Thirdly, the word Hindu, in a religious context, is a relatively new term used for a few hundred years and was actually coined by Europeans or Mughals and not by native practioners themselves.  In most ancient scriptures, the term hindu is not even used.  Furthermore, as a faith, it does not denote ethnic, culture, regional or linguistic affiliation.  There are Hari Krishna's in California, are they South Asian or indian too? Even amongst practioner's of hinduism, there is no clear defination of who is one, and its basically an umbrella term that was recently appropriated to encompass the many various polytheistic beliefs prevalent in South Asia.  To state that the inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization where so is just plain nonsense and devoid of facts.  No such evidence exists.  Lets stick to the facts and not distort history, is that too much to ask for.
 
The Indus Valley Culture and the subsequent civilizations that existed afterwards was a river based civilization, very specific to the region which now encompasses Pakistan in its current geographical form, so while the name Pakistan in its modern form may be relatively new, the nation and conglomerate of the current populations, consisting of the Sindhi, Panjabi, Pashtun, Baloch, Seraiki and Dards that make up Pakistan, irrespective of their religious practices(be they Buddhist, Pagan, Zorastrian, Muslim, Shamanist, Christian, atheist, hindu etc..)always gravitated towards the fertile Indus plains, and as such,  have formed various nation states that existed in various forms throughout history albeit by other names.  Why there is a need to hijack it by people inhabiting hundreds if not thousands of kilometers away in remote corners of South Asia, I can never understand.
 
Lets encourage healthy, unbiased and fact based posts here guys. Wink The goal for us all is to enrich ourselves and learn new and interesting facets of history, but hopefully, minus any intentional slant or revision as that takes away from it.


Edited by MarcoPolo - 22-May-2009 at 20:47
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