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Forum LockedA DVD on Islam found in my town's newspaper

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    Posted: 16-Sep-2008 at 05:18
I tried putting this in current events, but I don't have permission to post there (like half the site I want to post in, so whatever, here will do)

I just watched the video 'Obsession- Radical Islam's war against the west'{1 hour}, it's about Radical Islam's war against the west, and some of it's origins, such as the Grand Mufti's of Jerusalem's pact with Hitler to wipe out the Jews, and how they were setting up muslim SS brigades in Europe with international volunteers from the middle east.... the relation of radical Islam to Nazism, and the preachings of the suicide bombers, and some clips. 

I remember two clips being suspect though from when I watched it, one was from Iraq in Feb or 2003, which was a month before the Iraq invasion.... I know there wasn't alot of support for Jihad there, cause there wasn't much of a guerrilla war in the beginning- Saddam failed in that regard till the foreign fighters came in later... seemed like a cheap shot to put it in, but at the same time, was kinda legitimate, being a religious call to Jihad, but it seemed a little below the belt.

The other one was the Mosques in the US doing a march on the whitehouse to turn it into a muslim house.... I don't know.... I too have marched on the whitehouse as a teenager, as have several million americans..... we say some pretty crazy stuff when we're angry or inspired, and all want to make washington ours... and given there wasn't a attempt to over run the white house (good thing too, those snipers are good- doubt they make it past the water fountain), I am thinking it wasn't meant in the way the video claimed it to be.

Other than that, I did recognize some (but not most) of those guys on it from middle eastern TV or my time in Iraq, and they were pretty radical.

The video said to reach out and support the moderates... so I guess this is the part of the post where I reach out and support the moderates thoughout the middle east...... I support you..... from way over here. PeaceThumbs%20Up

But on a History note....... if I watched it, I'm guessing some of you have too, and since it was free, It's likely okay to download for free.... given it being free and all, so safe for internet discussions. Can we have a discussion about this? Was the movie all lies, or true? Millions of people will eventually see this DVD, I think it should be discussed. Also, is there any DVDs like this from the radical islamic point of view being massed mailed or distributed via some means that shows how the west is all deeply wrong and is to blame for everything.... and does anyone have a link to a English translation?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2008 at 17:37
Originally posted by Mercury_Dawn Mercury_Dawn wrote:

and how they were setting up muslim SS brigades in Europe with international volunteers from the middle east.... the relation of radical Islam to Nazism, and the preachings of the suicide bombers, and some clips.  
I dont know about the rest of a video, but this is a clear distortion.  Like most distortions, it is based on truth. The truth is that there were magority Muslim SS units raised in the Balkans (Albanians and more famously, Bosinans). 
 
The Bosnians in the "muslim" SS unit had a poor discipline history.  After limited combat in the Balkans (mostly spent commiting war crimes against Serb civilans), the unit was sent to France. They soon mutinied and killed several German officers and NCOS.  The unit was then disbanded.  There were never "international volunteers" from the Middle East.
 
So... instead of NAZI - Islamacist global conspiracy you simply have a unit composed mostly of nominal Muslims with no allegiance what so ever to NAZI ideology. Ironically, more than a few of the Bosnian Muslims were "Muslim" only because of family or village affiliation, not because of religous fervor.  60 years later, these guys are turned into not only ideological NAZIS, but some kind of "Islamacist Nazis"? 


Edited by Cryptic - 16-Sep-2008 at 17:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2008 at 19:45
Hello Mercury
 
The last thing the film wants is to reach out to "moderates". If it really wanted that it would have brought the hundreds of fatwas in condemnation to terror. It would have brought the demos against terror across the Arab and Islamic worlds some were over 100k large. It would have explored the struggle muslims face against terror which killed nearly 200k muslims compared with a couple of thousand dead in 9/11 and previous and subsequent terror attacks.
 
The message of this film is simple and basic, it indoctronates people against Islam and after the course ended they say "Oh, and there are moderates out there but no body can hear them so don't waste your time".
 
I think Cryptic explained the Muslim SS but I will add that nearly all Bosnian scholars forbade joining Nazis and encouraged resisting them and there are many muslims from the Balkans who were honoured by jewish groups for saving jews during the Holocaust. Niether fact was not mentioned because it will put the film makers in a delicate position.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turenne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2008 at 13:36
Im always amazed that we have dozens of experts on the muslim world who are able to give us an honest picture of the current problems of the middle east and the radicalism of some people who claim to be a part of Islam and yet, we mostly see movies like Obsession- Radical Islam's, a production that reeks of Islamophobia.
 
Its a fact that most Islamist movements are more political than religious and even a man like Daniel Pipes has recognised this.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2008 at 14:47
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello Mercury
 
The last thing the film wants is to reach out to "moderates". If it really wanted that it would have brought the hundreds of fatwas in condemnation to terror. It would have brought the demos against terror across the Arab and Islamic worlds some were over 100k large. It would have explored the struggle muslims face against terror which killed nearly 200k muslims compared with a couple of thousand dead in 9/11 and previous and subsequent terror attacks.
 
The message of this film is simple and basic, it indoctronates people against Islam and after the course ended they say "Oh, and there are moderates out there but no body can hear them so don't waste your time".
 
I think Cryptic explained the Muslim SS but I will add that nearly all Bosnian scholars forbade joining Nazis and encouraged resisting them and there are many muslims from the Balkans who were honoured by jewish groups for saving jews during the Holocaust. Niether fact was not mentioned because it will put the film makers in a delicate position.
 
AL-Jassas


A lot of Bosnians of the Jewish faith hid in mosques and catholic churches during wwII by priests and imams. Another note not mentioned. As far as the Handjar SS unit, it was not that siezable nor effective nor popular. Most Bosnians who follow Islam joined en masse Tito's partizans as he was the only one that actually didn't try to convert or kill them, but were they were treated more equally. The ones that in the majority did join did so to protect families rather for some ideological reasons.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2008 at 14:49
Originally posted by Turenne Turenne wrote:

Im always amazed that we have dozens of experts on the muslim world who are able to give us an honest picture of the current problems of the middle east and the radicalism of some people who claim to be a part of Islam and yet, we mostly see movies like Obsession- Radical Islam's, a production that reeks of Islamophobia.
 
Its a fact that most Islamist movements are more political than religious and even a man like Daniel Pipes has recognised this.


Unfortunately its easier to hate people by separating them as the "other," and if you judge that "other's" way of life and conscience as evil, well you got yourself a Robert Spencer and other progenitors of this type of garbage.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2008 at 16:48
Quote it's about Radical Islam's war against the west
 
Is Radical Islam a person? who is this guy Confused 
 
Islam is a religion.
 
Its possible for a radical muslim to have a war with whoever, however, its impossible for a non-living entity to have a war with anyone...
 
However, we must remember this is a hate-mongering video, biggots don't have much time for logic, unlogical arguments and ridiculous distortions of the truth is their thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mercury_Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2008 at 01:02
I personally have never seen anyone, much less a muslim, do the Hail Hitler Salute... you know, the arm straight out, but it showed large gatherings of Muslims in battledress doing it over and over again in different ceremonies. Now, it's a very distinctive salute.... you don't just do that by accident and go 'oooppps, we didn't know the Nazis just happened to have the same salute as we accidentally adopted'.

I'm thinking some of the groups do follow some Nazis techniques most willingly. Having said this, I have never witnessed this in real life either, though I seriously doubt the scenes were faked or doctored.     But I have witnessed hate crimes before among muslims, and a brand of civil war that could at times almost be said to be indiscriminate genocide.... I dunno. If there were internationals, especially from Palestine, signed up with these muslim SS units, I could see the easy and quick assimilation of parts of the methods and doctrines used throughout the middle east..... Hitler did come damn near close to defeating the Western world. Plus, Hitler was the ultimate antagonist of the Jews. I think it's justifiable to assume the probability of direct evolution and survival of cells or groups who once served under or allied to the Further in some form still operating. But, as I have not delve into a indepth analysis of anti-semitic movements in the decade prior to Israeli independence, or from this angle for after, I am largely in the dark. I didn't even know the Mufti of Jerusalem entered into alliance with Hitler. Explains to me alot about the motivations of later wars in the region. None the less, this video.... I am not so sure about all and all, something feels off about it, but not in the way people have claimed it to be anti-islamic. This didn't feel like a hate video in the least, I've seen a few of those.... this isn't one of them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2008 at 02:49
^
I can see your point.  Hitler's antisemitisim has led some Muslims to imitate Nazi symbols, salutes etc.  But I think we need to make the following distictions....
 
Theological Islamacists (Al Queda umbrella organization etc) would ridicule Hitler, his psuedo pagan symbols, political beliefs or his racist ideology.  Bored and unemployed young Muslim teenagers in Europe are an enirely different story. Some Turkish secular rightwing groups probalby also use Nazi symbols.  Identifying the Hitler saluting Nazis as Muslim Nazis, however, is simply accurate. It would be like identifying their German counterparts as Catholic or Protestant Nazis.  In both cases, religion simply is not a motivator.
 
As far as Paletsinian internationals serving in the German Arrmy, to my knowledge, there were absolutely none. A few Arabs, however, were in Germany during WWII as military observers.  One was a secular, beer drinking Syrian Germanophile who later became a Syrian general.  
 
There was simply no Post War NAZI-Arab connection. Syria, and many Palestestinians  developed leftist governments and orientated towards the Soviet Union.  For decades, Palestinian guerillas and terrorists were secular Muslims and Christians (George Habash). A prime example is that Yassar Arafat (his wife is Christian) was never a religous fundamentalist.  The Islamic fundamentalist groups did not emerge until the mid 1980s.   


Edited by Cryptic - 19-Sep-2008 at 02:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mercury_Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2008 at 05:28
I never though of Turks in Germany being into Hitler... and have no evidence other than your suggestion to think otherwise.... I mean, they did sit out WW2 despite a strong pro german stance in the past. However.... I keep finding myself thinking about that Mufti from the videos going to Germany to meet with Hitler and making the alliance. I know he had some influence, are we serious that he traveled all the way to Germany, met with Hitler... and according to the video, made a alliance with Hitler that was documented in German (which I can't read, but they showed it on the video) to help fight against the Jews. This is well before Israeli independence. It would go along way to explain the arming of the Jews the decade prior if they were threatened to such a degree, as well as hurt many Muslims claims that the radicalism that is present in the middle east only evolved afterwards. I mean, why the hell would the Mufti do something like that? No matter who was incharge of Jerusalem, you would have three faiths under you, three faiths who if challenged would be very explosive.... I thought this was known since the Crusade era by all, protect what is yours, but also, let the other faiths be, or they will hurt you something awful if you mess with them. The Muslims up until this era understood this quite well, as did the British. Why would the Mufti try to so radically alter the situation by making this alliance with Hitler? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2008 at 15:55
Originally posted by Mercury_Dawn Mercury_Dawn wrote:

I mean, why the hell would the Mufti do something like that? 
The Mufti in question was as much into power politics as he was religion. Most of his victims before Israeli independence were not Jews, but rather Muslim political rivals. The Mufti had nothing against Jews per se, but was strongly against the increasing numbers of European Jews immigrating to Palestine. European Jews were far more likely to be given favorable treatement (governmental positions etc) by the British colonial rulers than local Arab Muslims. 
 
The Mufti's "alliance" with Hitler was simply because he didnot want more immigration of European Jews to Palestine and he wanted to end British colonial rule in Palestine. A German victory would accomplish both of these things. He never supported the holocaust. He simply did not want Jews coming to Palestine.  In this way, the Mufti was no different than the American Christians who clearly didnot want Jewish immigrants either and made it very difficult for Jewish refugees fleeing Hitler to resettle in the USA.
 
Originally posted by Mercury_Dawn Mercury_Dawn wrote:

I never though of Turks in Germany being into Hitler... 
99%(+) of Turks in Turkey are not into Hitler. There are however, several right wing groups (Grey Wolves) some of these groups may use neo-nazi imagery.  Boredom aand youth can lead to strange things.   


Edited by Cryptic - 19-Sep-2008 at 16:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2008 at 17:28
Quote Cryptic
99%(+) of Turks in Turkey are not into Hitler. There are however, several right wing groups (Grey Wolves) some of these groups may use neo-nazi imagery.  Boredom aand youth can lead to strange things.


There are no major Neo-Nazi groups operating in Turkey, it would really go against any kind of Nazi ideology to be associated with Turks, then again Slavs were one of Hitlers most hated people but today a small minority of Russians are affliated with Neo-Nazi movements. There are right wing groups in Turkey, they have their fair share of nationalism and chauvanistic views however, they're more religous-nationalist based and less focused on racial purity for example there are Kurdish Grey wolves, supporters and sympathisers.

However, there are some minor groups, a few kids with an ultra anti-religous stance who tried to start a Nazi group up for a while, I forgot its name but it didn't ever get off the ground.

Most Turks in Europe are anti-Nazi as they are targets of Neo-Nazi groups themselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2008 at 18:48
I have the trailer online but I have not see it although it does not represent the majority of Muslims- But, 10-15% of their population might support this and current event and history support this. My hope is the majority of peaceful Muslims in the world will resist the crazies like Christian or other groups should resist the crazies amongst them. The Communist are probably the worse!! Nepal, Viet Nam, china etc

watch the trailer:

http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2008 at 19:04
The trailer is more laughable - especially the fox news pundits - than this post. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2008 at 21:10
The mufti of Jerusalem was a political opportunist. His country was occupied by Britain, Britain was literally involved in massacring and deporting Palestinians at the hands of Jewish terror groups, Ms Livni's father was a leader of one of these groups so were many of the old politicians in Israel, read about Wingate if you want. He saw in the victorious Germans an opportunity, if they win, and they were 30 Km from Alexandria at one point, the Jewish problem will end forever. He knew that Arabs were quite low in the classification of the racial groups but he thought that German occupation is much better than British one. Plus he was wanted for the British authorities in Palestine and Germans gave him safe refuge. And in any case he had little support either in Palestine or among the masses of muslims abroad because he practically sabotaged the prospects of peace by refusing the white paper which was already doomed.
 
The jews in Palestine were quite clever, once the war started, their terror campaign almost stopped. They volunteered and some 80k men fought with them including all of Israel's future military commanders. Their actions made the popularity of their cause sky rocket because people back home, even those who supported the white paper, saw that the jews fough and died for Britain but the Arabs didn't, in fact anti British feeling were high and several pro-German coups happened. Those veterans fought in the 48 war against not only forces of inferior numbers, but also of inferior quality as well and gained victory and the only victorious unit in the Arab army was the Arab legion which fought in WWII.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 02:05
I wonder why everytime someone uses the term Islamic terrorist it is interpreted as all Muslims are evil terrorist. I realize there are some uneducated people who would think this but not most.

Does Italian fascist mean all Italians are fascist? no
or does conservative democrat imply all democrats are conservative? -no

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 06:56
Because you pretty much blame the religion and not the idiot who piggybacks on religion in a dishonest fashion to further his goals when you call it Islamofascism Islamic terror or any other blanket term. It creates that other in the argument and clearly separates Muslims at that other end - and then of course to make it "fair"... sort off you give that moderate phrase in there - which of course means that the moderates are actually fighting against the norm instead of it meaning that the few idiots who use religion to further their goals are going against the norm.
By you not meaning you directly but the usage of these terms in general.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 23:15
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

Quote it's about Radical Islam's war against the west

 

Is Radical Islam a person? who is this guy Confused 

 

Islam is a religion.

 

Its possible for a radical muslim to have a war with whoever, however, its impossible for a non-living entity to have a war with anyone...

 

However, we must remember this is a hate-mongering video, biggots don't have much time for logic, unlogical arguments and ridiculous distortions of the truth is their thing.


There are moderate Muslims but no there is no moderate Islam. I realize it is an ideolology or religion but some get their extreme beliefs from Islamic religious sources.

Some Muslims go to other countries and want the legal system to change or adapt to sharia law like in the U.K. and other Muslims do not.

This is an interesting article about Tancredo Proposes Anti-Sharia Measure in Wake of U.K. Certification of Islamic Courts

This article is from a Muslims group so it shows not all Muslims want sharia law imported to America or even Europe. Are they Islamophobic???
I support this bill and I will write my rep.


Tancredo Proposes Anti-Sharia Measure in Wake of U.K. Certification of Islamic Courts

Jihad Prevention Act” would deny U.S. visas to advocates of ‘Sharia’ law, expel Islamists already here

WASHINGTON, DC – Amid disturbing revelations that the verdicts of Islamic Sharia courts are now legally binding in civil cases in the United Kingdom, U.S. Representative Tom Tancredo (R-Littleton) moved quickly today to introduce legislation designed to protect the United States from a similar fate.

According to recent news reports, a new network of Sharia courts in a half-dozen major cities in the U.K. have been empowered under British law to adjudicate a wide variety of legal cases ranging from divorces and financial disputes to those involving domestic violence.

“This is a case where truth is truly stranger than fiction,” said Tancredo. “Today the British people are learning a hard lesson about the consequences of massive, unrestricted immigration.”

Sharia law, favored by Muslim extremists around the world, often calls for brutal punishment – such as the stoning of women who are accused of adultery or have children out of wedlock, cutting off the hands of petty thieves and lashings for the casual consumption of alcohol. Under Sharia law, a woman is often required to provide numerous witnesses to prove rape allegations against an assailant – a near impossible task.

“When you have an immigration policy that allows for the importation of millions of radical Muslims, you are also importing their radical ideology – an ideology that is fundamentally hostile to the foundations of western democracy – such as gender equality, pluralism, and individual liberty,” said Tancredo. “The best way to safeguard America against the importation of the destructive effects of this poisonous ideology is to prevent its purveyors from coming here in the first place.”

Tancredo’s bill, dubbed the “Jihad Prevention Act,” would bar the entry of foreign nationals who advocate Sharia law. In addition, the legislation would make the advocacy of Sharia law by radical Muslims already in the United States a deportable offense.

Tancredo pointed to the results of a recent poll conducted by the Centre for Social Cohesion as evidence that the U.S. should act to prevent the situation in Great Britain from replicating itself here in the United States. The poll found that some 40 percent of Muslim students in the United Kingdom support the introduction of Sharia law there, and 33 percent support the imposition of an Islamic Sharia-based government worldwide.

“We need to send a clear message that the only law we recognize here in America is the U.S. Constitution and the laws passed by our democratically elected representatives,” concluded Tancredo. “If you aren’t comfortable with that concept, you aren’t welcome in the United States.”

Source: Border Fire Report
H/T: Shariah Finance Watch
Hon.



http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/2008/09/tancredo-proposes-anti-sharia-measure.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bernard Woolley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2008 at 03:29

Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

"We need to send a clear message that the only law we recognize here in America is the U.S. Constitution and the laws passed by our democratically elected representatives," concluded Tancredo. "If you aren’t comfortable with that concept, you aren’t welcome in the United States."

A strange message to send, seeing as that what he's proposing - stripping Americans of their rights for expressing their opinions - is about as unconstitutional as you can get.

There's nothing wrong with exploring and testing ideas. We had a debate about sharia law in Ontario a few years ago. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but beyond histrionics from a few individuals it was actually fairly mundane, and we're actually better off for having had it.

Here's a brief recap of what happened:

1) People in Ontario had long been allowed to seek legally binding arbitration from religious community leaders (priests, rabbis, elders, etc.) in some civil cases, provided that both parties agreed to the arrangement, that the decisions were consistent with Ontario law, and that either party could appeal to a secular court. It was proposed that this be extended to create sharia courts - again, for certain civil cases, with both parties agreeing to the arangement, and still subject to Ontario's legal standards.

2) This reasonable proposal was seriously considered. It was decided that creating sharia courts was not desirable - it was too contentious, and there really wasn't any reason for it good enough to justify the cost.

3) it wouldn't have been fair, however, to arbitrarily say no to muslims while others were allowed to have religious courts. So Ontario law now explicitly rejects all religious arbitration, which frankly I think should have been the case all along. People can still go and have their spiritual guides tell them what to do if they really want to, but as far as I'm concerned there's no reason they should have the backing of the state to do so. So the law is now a little better and a little fairer, as a result of debating sharia.

Although I didn't think sharia courts were a good idea, I wouldn't have lost much sleep if they had been brought in. They would have been so heavily constrained by secular oversight that there would have been zero chance of a budding Wahhabist jurisprudence taking shape (indeed, a big reason why I think it would have been a bad idea is that it would essentially have been exactly the same as secular law, except delivered by a third party and therefore adding an extra layer of bureaucracy).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turenne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2008 at 14:10
We had something along those lines in Quebec too about religious reasonable accomodations.  While we had a few nutjobs, it was an appropriate forum for those problems (such as the legal status of the Charia).
 
Having those open discussions is the wisest thing to do.


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