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Forum LockedA Collaborator in Your Neighborhood

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Poll Question: Would you kill an enemy collaborator if you knew about him?
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5 [45.45%]
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    Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 22:42

Say the area of your country where you live was taken over by some hostile power during a major war, and occupied for a fairly long amount of time (like an occupied France during World War II type situation).  There is a neighbor of yours who you know is collaborating with the enemy by giving them information.  You have access to a gun and you know that you could pretty easily go into your neighbor's house and kill him if you wanted to.  Would you kill him for your country or would you decide to not take such matters into your own hands, even though they are helping the enemies of your country?

Personally, I'd kill him in a heartbeat and not lose a minute of sleep over it, it's my duty as a citizen to kill such traitors during wartime.  And doing so would also frighten my remaining neighbors into not collaborating either, thus hopefully doing my small part to defend my country.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slickmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 17:19
Murder is wrong wheter wartime or not. What good is it to kill a person collaborating with an enemy if you will be found out and killed anyway? It is wasted effort and your thought is very disturbing being so bloodthirsty!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 18:11
Itdepends on who the occupying power is.  If its a power whose domination is detreimental to me Id kill them in a second, if they were a power whose presence benefited me then I would probably join them in co-colaboration, if they didnt effect me, I wouldnt care.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 18:34

Originally posted by Slickmeister Slickmeister wrote:

Murder is wrong wheter wartime or not. What good is it to kill a person collaborating with an enemy if you will be found out and killed anyway? It is wasted effort and your thought is very disturbing being so bloodthirsty!

But treason is much more wrong and that very traitor is potentially helping murder my countrymen.  I'd be willing to die to defend my country and my countrymen from collaborators and to intimidate other collaborators.  What type of citizen or honorable person would I be if I let their crime go unpunished because "murder is wrong"?  I couldn't live with myself if I didn't do my duty.  That's my line of reasoning.

Originally posted by Tobodai Tobodai wrote:

It depends on who the occupying power is.  If its a power whose domination is detreimental to me Id kill them in a second, if they were a power whose presence benefited me then I would probably join them in co-colaboration, if they didnt effect me, I wouldnt care.

How can you say that?  Wouldn't you want to defend your country if it were being violated?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 18:36
No, I won't kill such a person.
Perhaps I would kill a foreign army officer or so if he is occupying and oppressing my country, but I don't think I would kill a traitor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 18:51

 

How can you say that?  Wouldn't you want to defend your country if it were being violated?

[/QUOTE]

No, I want to defend myself, my personal property and my interests.  You claim to like realpolitik so much, I just practice it with me in place of hte nation.  After all thats the reason most powerful and sucessful people do anything, for themselves, the rhetoric of nations is only to get people to support them.  If by resisting I got killed and by co-operating with occupiers I got cash and a harem I would go with the colaborators, that is, as long as thier culture/ideals/presence I did not deem a threat.

For example, if communists, religious nuts, or terrorists took control of the US I would resist because they are a personalt threat to ME and what I like, if however people who were relateviely harmless, culturally superior in my view, or people whos nations ideals I like more than mine, what reason do I have to resist them?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 18:52

"But treason is much more wrong and that very traitor is potentially helping murder my countrymen.  I'd be willing to die to defend my country and my countrymen from collaborators and to intimidate other collaborators.  What type of citizen or honorable person would I be if I let their crime go unpunished because "murder is wrong"?  I couldn't live with myself if I didn't do my duty.  That's my line of reasoning."

Depends, a traitor in one country will be labeled as a spy in another<he probably got his citizenship to spy in the first place anyway>. The best thing to do for me is to turn him in. Or, not letting him know that he's discovered may turn out to your country's advantage<making him give wrong information and such, so the traitor being alive/clueless is better than being dead>, heeheehee.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 18:55
thats a good point, if you want to strike back at the occupiers then it would be better to feed the colaborator flase information that simply to kill him, you could do so much mroe damage!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 18:59
Originally posted by Genghis Genghis wrote:

Say the area of your country where you live was taken over by some hostile power during a major war, and occupied for a fairly long amount of time (like an occupied France during World War II type situation).  There is a neighbor of yours who you know is collaborating with the enemy by giving them information.  You have access to a gun and you know that you could pretty easily go into your neighbor's house and kill him if you wanted to.  Would you kill him for your country or would you decide to not take such matters into your own hands, even though they are helping the enemies of your country?

 

 

 

 

Personally, I'd kill him in a heartbeat and not lose a minute of sleep over it, it's my duty as a citizen to kill such traitors during wartime.  And doing so would also frighten my remaining neighbors into not collaborating either, thus hopefully doing my small part to defend my country.

Slickmeister wrote:
Murder is wrong wheter wartime or not. What good is it to kill a person collaborating with an enemy if you will be found out and killed anyway? It is wasted effort and your thought is very disturbing being so bloodthirsty!

But treason is much more wrong and that very traitor is potentially helping murder my countrymen.  I'd be willing to die to defend my country and my countrymen from collaborators and to intimidate other collaborators.  What type of citizen or honorable person would I be if I let their crime go unpunished because "murder is wrong"?  I couldn't live with myself if I didn't do my duty.  That's my line of reasoning.

Tobodai wrote:
It depends on who the occupying power is.  If its a power whose domination is detreimental to me Id kill them in a second, if they were a power whose presence benefited me then I would probably join them in co-colaboration, if they didnt effect me, I wouldnt care.

How can you say that?  Wouldn't you want to defend your country if it were being violated?

 

I take my hat off to you Genghis, I know of no other American who would so openly support the Iraqi resistance. Aren't you worried the NSA may be on yur trail?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 19:01

P.S.

On behalf of the entire population of the UK I wouldlike to answer no to your question. As yet nobody's put a gun to Tony Blair head and gone Bang!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 19:05
Originally posted by Tobodai Tobodai wrote:

or people whos nations ideals I like more than mine, what reason do I have to resist them?

 


hmm...

I see possibilities

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 19:33
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Genghis Genghis wrote:

Say the area of your country where you live was taken over by some hostile power during a major war, and occupied for a fairly long amount of time (like an occupied France during World War II type situation).  There is a neighbor of yours who you know is collaborating with the enemy by giving them information.  You have access to a gun and you know that you could pretty easily go into your neighbor's house and kill him if you wanted to.  Would you kill him for your country or would you decide to not take such matters into your own hands, even though they are helping the enemies of your country?

 

 

 

 

Personally, I'd kill him in a heartbeat and not lose a minute of sleep over it, it's my duty as a citizen to kill such traitors during wartime.  And doing so would also frighten my remaining neighbors into not collaborating either, thus hopefully doing my small part to defend my country.

Slickmeister wrote:
Murder is wrong wheter wartime or not. What good is it to kill a person collaborating with an enemy if you will be found out and killed anyway? It is wasted effort and your thought is very disturbing being so bloodthirsty!

But treason is much more wrong and that very traitor is potentially helping murder my countrymen.  I'd be willing to die to defend my country and my countrymen from collaborators and to intimidate other collaborators.  What type of citizen or honorable person would I be if I let their crime go unpunished because "murder is wrong"?  I couldn't live with myself if I didn't do my duty.  That's my line of reasoning.

Tobodai wrote:
It depends on who the occupying power is.  If its a power whose domination is detreimental to me Id kill them in a second, if they were a power whose presence benefited me then I would probably join them in co-colaboration, if they didnt effect me, I wouldnt care.

How can you say that?  Wouldn't you want to defend your country if it were being violated?

 

I take my hat off to you Genghis, I know of no other American who would so openly support the Iraqi resistance. Aren't you worried the NSA may be on yur trail?

Just because I disagree with them, doesn't mean I don't see their reasoning.  They are using my line of reasoning, only to attain a different end.  And it is in the ends that humans are divided and how I judge people, not their rationale.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 19:55

Originally posted by Genghis Genghis wrote:

Just because I disagree with them, doesn't mean I don't see their reasoning.  They are using my line of reasoning, only to attain a different end.  And it is in the ends that humans are divided and how I judge people, not their rationale.

Surely every politician, leader, president, despot, dictator, king, emperor and ruler  in history has had the same 'ends', it's the 'reasoning' they use to sell it to the people that differs.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 20:13
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Genghis Genghis wrote:

Just because I disagree with them, doesn't mean I don't see their reasoning.  They are using my line of reasoning, only to attain a different end.  And it is in the ends that humans are divided and how I judge people, not their rationale.

Surely every politician, leader, president, despot, dictator, king, emperor and ruler  in history has had the same 'ends', it's the 'reasoning' they use to sell it to the people that differs.

I'd disagree.  I think it's the ends that separates the leaders of history.  Look at how different fundamental motivations were for the delegates at Versailles.  And look at the motivations of leaders like Hitler (a utopian race dream), Peter the Great (modernizing Mother Russia),  Winston Churchill (defend the honor of the fading empire), etc.  I know that you mean increasing the power of their nations by "the same ends", but I'd consider what they plan to do with that power as their true end, and the power as just the means.  I hope I made myself a little bit clearer.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 21:05

Increasing the power of their nation is definately the second most important ends, but I'd say maintaining their position was the primary one. Whether a tyrant oppressing the people to frighten them into passivity or a prime minister pandering to popular lynch mob mentality to get another term. Surely this lies uncomfortably at the heart of most ends.

Can you honestly say Iraqi rebels and the US differ in ends over Iraq? Surely more important than what they will do with the power if they get it, is gaining it in the first place.?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 18:56

I would have to say if any enemy actually invaded the US I would join in with them, whether they be Islamic extremists, Fascist authoritarians or Khmer Rouge. I feel that the US is so mired in its own failings that the only way to work something out would be to start fresh, I can always change the ideology of the invaders after they leave, like an immediate coup.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 19:04

Quote

But treason is much more wrong and that very traitor is potentially helping murder my countrymen. 

Lets look at the definition of treason:

 

Quote

8 United States Criminal Code 2381
Congress of the United States

8 USC Sec. 2381 01/06/97 TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 115 - TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES

Sec. 2381. Treason

Statute

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Source

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 807; Sept. 13, 1994, Pub. L.
103-322, title III, Sec. 330016(2)(J), 108 Stat. 2148.)

Therefore if you don't owe your allegiance to the US you can't be convicted of treason.

Actually this got me thinking on whether I have sworn allegiance to the US, and if I could un-citizen myself. Here is an interesting site I found.

http://www.wealth4freedom.com/truth/17/citizen.htm

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dark_one Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 21:13
 Well back in Russia I would kill him, unless Russia was controlled by a foreigner and the occupiers were Russian rebels, in which case I would join their ranks. In the USA I wouldn't. Better to live than to fight for country i have no strong feelings for.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2004 at 00:42


If a colaborator is on my onw neighborhood, I should dispatch him. But not in a violent fashion.

There are a lot of herbs that can do that job easily.
I should invite him to eat at home and then offer him a tea made of Veintiunilla ( it means 21 ). Itīs called on that way, because 21 days after the victim drinks it, he/she will day due a heart attack. No residuals can be traced on the blood during a forensic analysis.

During the US occupation of Mexico City in 1847, many mexican patriots poissoned US soldiers with drinks, food and even candies.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2004 at 07:32
And what would anyone do if the traitor supported a nazi-style enemy? The nazis used to wipe out entire villages if an important person was killed.
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