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Forum Locked62nd anniversary of Hiroshima

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote what_is_history Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 23:04
I'll tell you why we are not ashamed.  We didn't start the war.  Read your history!
"It aint what you don't know that gets you in trouble; it's what you know for sure that just ain't so."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 23:18
Originally posted by Justinian Justinian wrote:

One thing most americans don't even know is that we had our own "concentration camps" for japanese americans and italian and german nationals.Dead 
 
While it is true that the internment camps represent a grave moral evil, it is ludicrous to try to establish a moral equivalency between the U.S. organized internment camps and the German extermination camps. You did not do this, at least not overtly. Still, I am responding because I feel that we need to establish the proper context in which to understand the evils committed by both the Axis and the Allies in the Second World War.
 
-Akolouthos
 
P.S. We must also remember, in the interests of understanding American xenophobia during WWII, that the U.S. internment camps for German and Italian Americans were a good bit more pleasant than those established to contain Japanese Americans.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 01:17

Did it come across that way?  If it did then I didn't explain myself properly.  There is no comparison between the two.  What I mean't to say was America had some faults and biases' of its own, like the axis, but nowhere near the level of the japanese and germans.  I used the word concentration camp because that is the term I have heard used for that particular situation before.  Perhaps a better example would have been the racism towards minorities especially blacks in america, similar to the germans racism, just that the germans went way beyond the americans.

"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 01:23
It didn't. I was simply trying to clarify the point, as there are a lot of people who have irrationally criticized American conduct during the war in this thread--which is quite surprising, since there are perfectly valid rational criticisms that can be made. I apologize if you felt like I was accusing you; the comment "at least not overtly" was intended to give you the opportunity to disagree if I had interpreted your original comments in a softer sense than you had intended them. In retrospect, it was I who was being reckless with my language, for which you have my apologies. In an effort to clarify certain points, I muddled the original point of your post.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 01:58
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

I know your point very well.  Look in this thread and you will find thaat most Americans think in the same way. I simply do not agree with it. I do not understand why present day Germans and Japanese are ashaimed of what happened but Americans, Brits and Russians are not. I do not understand why the winninng side suppose that it was more right than Germans or Japanese.  To me there was no right side in this War.

To stop doing something wrong you first need to realize that it is wrong. That's the first step.
 
We should be greatfull that not everybody were thinking like You cause we would be know living in some Nazi or Communist dictatorship. I will add that if not Russians, Brits and Americans there wouldn't be now any Jews, Polish, Gypsies, Russians etc but it doesn't seem to disturb You so dream on...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 07:03
Originally posted by what_is_history what_is_history wrote:

I'll tell you why we are not ashamed.  We didn't start the war.  Read your history!


Last 50 years you started at least 5 wars. Number of people died in these wars is comparable to number of Jews died in WWII. If I were you I would be ashamed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 07:11
Originally posted by Majkes Majkes wrote:

We should be greatfull that not everybody were thinking like You cause we would be know living in some Nazi or Communist dictatorship. I will add that if not Russians, Brits and Americans there wouldn't be now any Jews, Polish, Gypsies, Russians etc but it doesn't seem to disturb You so dream on...


Dream on what? You discuss the issue in terms of historical amusements. There would be no if...  I know that Americans, Russians and Britts killed many innocent people and by that way there is no difference between them and Germans or Japanese. But now there is one huge difference -- Germans and Japanese remember what have they done and will try to avoid this in future. Others keep thinking that they were right. They made wrong conclusions from the War.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 07:23
 will add that if not Russians, Brits and Americans there wouldn't be now any Jews, Polish, Gypsies, Russians etc but it doesn't seem to disturb You so dream on...
 
 I am sure, jews,polish or gypsies will survive If USA does not drop an a bomb over japans. Or If Allies will not kill civilians.
 
I dont think we should change a japan civilian to an american one..At least, I have not such preference.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 08:22
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Originally posted by Majkes Majkes wrote:

We should be greatfull that not everybody were thinking like You cause we would be know living in some Nazi or Communist dictatorship. I will add that if not Russians, Brits and Americans there wouldn't be now any Jews, Polish, Gypsies, Russians etc but it doesn't seem to disturb You so dream on...


Dream on what? You discuss the issue in terms of historical amusements. There would be no if...  I know that Americans, Russians and Britts killed many innocent people and by that way there is no difference between them and Germans or Japanese. But now there is one huge difference -- Germans and Japanese remember what have they done and will try to avoid this in future. Others keep thinking that they were right. They made wrong conclusions from the War.
 
You said that to You there was no right side in this war. One of the stupidest claims I've heard on this forum. For me if one side goal was to destroy whole nations I support the other side that fought them. I suppose Your opinion is based on the fact that if Axis would win Bulgaria would grab Macedonia and parts of Greece.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 08:28
Originally posted by Mortaza Mortaza wrote:

 will add that if not Russians, Brits and Americans there wouldn't be now any Jews, Polish, Gypsies, Russians etc but it doesn't seem to disturb You so dream on...
 
 I am sure, jews,polish or gypsies will survive If USA does not drop an a bomb over japans. Or If Allies will not kill civilians.
 
I dont think we should change a japan civilian to an american one..At least, I have not such preference.
 
 
 
 
 
I was refering to what Anton said that there was no right side in this war so I don't know what Your post has to do with mineConfused. I don't support throwing bomb on Japan nor killing civilians.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 09:29
Originally posted by Majkes Majkes wrote:

You said that to You there was no right side in this war. One of the stupidest claims I've heard on this forum. For me if one side goal was to destroy whole nations I support the other side that fought them. I suppose Your opinion is based on the fact that if Axis would win Bulgaria would grab Macedonia and parts of Greece.


My opinion is based on a fact that killing  of people is bad. A thing I  believe to be so trivial that there is no need to repeate it.  C'mon Majkes don't tell me that you don't know that main reason of any war is economical. Goal of Germans was not to destroy nations but to  have an access to resources that growing German economics needed. As for the stupidity of my claim, I can only smile here Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 12:44
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Originally posted by Majkes Majkes wrote:

You said that to You there was no right side in this war. One of the stupidest claims I've heard on this forum. For me if one side goal was to destroy whole nations I support the other side that fought them. I suppose Your opinion is based on the fact that if Axis would win Bulgaria would grab Macedonia and parts of Greece.


My opinion is based on a fact that killing  of people is bad. A thing I  believe to be so trivial that there is no need to repeate it.  C'mon Majkes don't tell me that you don't know that main reason of any war is economical. Goal of Germans was not to destroy nations but to  have an access to resources that growing German economics needed. As for the stupidity of my claim, I can only smile here Wink
 
Ok, sorry Anton for that stupidyEmbarrassed. It wasn't stupid, You have some point there for sure but I have to say that in WWII economical reasons were not the only one. You can't deny Hitler planned to kill all Jews in Europe. He had also plans to turn Polish and other Slavs in slaves. He was a madman and because of this war wasn't like every other. Never before there were comitted such crimes. I would agree if You would say what You said about WWI but not about WWII.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 14:31
Yes, you are right in all points. What I wanted to say is that allies accepted the game rules and still play in the same way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2007 at 01:17
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

It didn't. I was simply trying to clarify the point, as there are a lot of people who have irrationally criticized American conduct during the war in this thread--which is quite surprising, since there are perfectly valid rational criticisms that can be made. I apologize if you felt like I was accusing you; the comment "at least not overtly" was intended to give you the opportunity to disagree if I had interpreted your original comments in a softer sense than you had intended them. In retrospect, it was I who was being reckless with my language, for which you have my apologies. In an effort to clarify certain points, I muddled the original point of your post.
 
-Akolouthos
Thanks for the explanation.  No offence taken.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndronicusRex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 01:19
Look the bombings took place during a war and had to happen.  An invasion of Japan would have cost an estimated 1 million American lives before a surrender could have been forced that way.  Instead, we paid them back for Pearl Harbor and their raping of South-East Asia, and forced a promt surrender and end to hostilities.  Of course in that situation an American is worth more than a Japanese person, its WAR.  Civilized or not, armed conflict is going to be a little more violent than you playing Risk with your friends.  Any sensible person realizes this.  In addition, the dropping of two atomic bombs ushered in a new age for humanity as a whole, and should always be viewed as a proud American achievement in both science and warfare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 01:54
Okay, the above post is where it becomes creepy. ^ The Atom Bomb was no great boon for humanity (as the inventors of it also beleived), yes the dropping was the right decision, but it was hardly a proud achivement, since then the invention of poison gas shells would have to be a proud German achievement.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 03:15
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

USA said they wouldn't accept an unconditional surrender - but they did!
Actually, this is one of the most misunderstood point in WW2 history.
 
The Potsdam Declaration (July 26, 1945) called for unconditional surrender of the armed forces only, dropping all references to the Japanese emperor.  And they (USA) got it, eventually.
 
But the Japanese leadership chose to rejected it (July 27-28, 1945).  The omission of references to the Tenno was not lost, but apparently, they thought the Allies was weakening their resolve (trying to preserve lives of the Allied troops) instead of the face-saving gesture it was meant to be.
 
Those who claimed Japan would have surrendered earlier if allowed to keep the Tenno overlooked this point.


Edited by snowybeagle - 27-Sep-2007 at 03:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 13:48
Quote In addition, the dropping of two atomic bombs ushered in a new age for humanity as a whole, and should always be viewed as a proud American achievement in both science and warfare.
 
Another example of the moral bankruptcy of the American Empire. Just when I think they can't sink any lower, some... poster comes up with something sicker.
 
All I can say to those who rush to defend these atrocities is despite the likes of you running about, I hope someone won't follow your example and drop a nuke or two on your country.


Edited by Beylerbeyi - 27-Sep-2007 at 13:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndronicusRex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 03:46
Haha well I guess a communist from Cuba certainly wouldn't agree, even though how many have been killed because of you and your ilk's "revolutions"?  In the International Forum our human rights record is still better than Cuba's, even despite the debacle that is Iraq and Bush's idiotic policies. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 08:33

Beylerbeyi, is if memory serves, from Turkey. There is a tradition on AE to chose a country not your own for your location.

The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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