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Forum Locked1973 Arab Israeli War.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 22:45
Again its apparent that your knowledge of the '73 war is highly highly suspect and based on streotypes. The Egyptian forces which had been held in reserve consisted of the First Army, with 2 infantry and two armoured divisions, elements of these actually saw action before the ceasefire, in repelling Aden's attacks on a crossroads and casuing Sharon to withraw to his original bridgehead. And the first battles in the Sinai were large corps level engagements and the Israelis came off much the worse, of the 4 divisions involved, two were decimated and were out of action a third was mauled and Sharon did not even bother attacking, smart man that he was. Israeli losses were heaviest in the battles after the crossing had been successfully completed and that is where the most serious reverses were suffered.
As for Israeli reserves by the time of the ceasefire, every battalion was committed, the ones in the West Bank had been committed already, it was in fact the Jerusalum Brigade which was the formation on the West Bank. The Israeli were the ones who wanted a ceasefire and they got it at an advantagous time.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 23:39
^
So....  Israelis on the West Bank, Israelis in the Golan heights and Israelis approaching  Damascus were all part of some secret Arab master plan to win while appearing to lose? WinkEmbarrassed. You accuse me of superficial knowledge, but you are confusing Arab propaganda with actual reality.
 
The Israelis were only defeated when attempting to "tank rush" troops protected by pre coordinated atgms. They quickly stopped attacking these units and went mobile (found the gap).    
 
The Israelis never retreated to their original bridge heads (except for possibily as a part of the cease fire). They did, however, start encountering problems when Egyptian militia and army stragglers sucessfully defended a town in house to house fighting from an Israeli Batalion task force. This success never stopped the overall Israeli advance, but did cause heavy casualties. The Israelis then realized that tough fighting still remained in built up towns between them and Cairo.  As a result, they were more willing to accept a cease fire knowing that they had still won the war. 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 19-Nov-2008 at 00:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 23:55
The war was won by the side which committed fewer mistakes.
It's blindness to think that the Egyptians were better than the Israelis. The Israelis could take the Egyptians on 1 to 1 combat easily. Look only at the famous Chinese Farm battle.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 05:25

Hello to you all

The 3rd Egyptian army was the newest formation of them all, the rest were veterans of the old campaigns in Yemen and 67 so no lack of experience there. It was chosen to cross because of its engineering units which were the best Egypt had and they did a miracle crossing Barlev line in 5 hours. As Sparten said almost half Egypt's armour and half its airforce was not committed into the battle yet (The airforce was withdrawn to southern bases as reserve and they did join the battle before the end of the war). On the Syrian side Only one third of Syria's army was committed to the fight and none of its airforce. The performance of Syrian special forces particularly was far superior than the best Israel could through at them (a platoon of Syrian special forces defeated a battlion of the Golani Brigade and another from special forces and captured Mount Hermon, mount Hermon was not "liberated", it was given back when Syrians withdrew their men at the end of the war).

As for the march on Damascus, well what did you expect with a 3 to 1 superiority on the Israeli side and total air supremacy. Actually the Syrians managed to launch a counter offensive on the last day of the war and liberate at least one Syrian town that was occupied during the counter offensive and advanced 5km in one day. Another massive counter offensive was schedueled on two fronts with the Iraqis leading from the south and Syrians from the North but Israel accepted the cease fire.
 
About Jordan, Jordan actually lent passive assistance to Israel, King Hussain, according to Israeli, US and UK documents released earlier this year was in Tel-Aviv on the eve of the war and not only gave them the blueprints of the war plan, part of his land was occupied and he was supposed to join in during the 3rd or 4th day depending on the situation, but he assured them he won't fight. Israel had only semi trained reservists in the west bank. 410k men were on both fronts while the largest estimate of actual Arab forces was 350k men.
 
As for Sharon and the Advance on Cairo, I already explained it, the gap which he infiltrated from was already closed (contained to be more precise), he was virtually isolated and sandwitched between two huge Egyptian armies, his division was being bombarded day and night and worst still, he had to face other Egyptian forces in front of him which stopped his march and forced to start going back. The guy was kicked out of the army and as far as I know no military commander has ever said that his adventure was a stroke of genius (his cross was but his attack on Cairo was stupid).
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 00:16
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

The performance of Syrian special forces particularly was far superior than the best Israel could through at them (a platoon of Syrian special forces defeated a battlion of the Golani Brigade and another from special forces and captured Mount Hermon
Syrian special forces units were clearly competitive with equivelant Israeli units.  Unfortunatly, Syrian line units were not equal to Israeli line units. This is demonstrated by the Syrian failure to breakthrough on the Golan heights despite a huge numerical advantage, strategic surprise and facing Israeli reserve units.
 
Had the war been a special forces based war such as Burma, 1944-45 or the British in Malaysia during the 1950s, the Syrians may have won.  But, mass manuver warfare is not based solely on special forces and line Syrian units had to be able to compete with line Israeli units.
 


Edited by Cryptic - 20-Nov-2008 at 00:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 10:16
Originally posted by Cryptic Cryptic wrote:

This is demonstrated by the Syrian failure to breakthrough on the Golan heights despite a huge numerical advantage, strategic surprise and facing Israeli reserve units.
 

AFAIK, the Syrians actually managed to break the israeli line (I think to the south, on their secondary effort), but rumor has it that Israel threatened with a nuclear attack if Syria continued.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 10:47
Originally posted by xristar xristar wrote:


AFAIK, the Syrians actually managed to break the israeli line (I think to the south, on their secondary effort), but rumor has it that Israel threatened with a nuclear attack if Syria continued.
 
Nuclear option was discarded by Israel because of the very serious consequences it would have the world driven into.
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we made up sorrows for ourselves;
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 15:31
Originally posted by xristar xristar wrote:

Originally posted by Cryptic Cryptic wrote:

This is demonstrated by the Syrian failure to breakthrough on the Golan heights despite a huge numerical advantage, strategic surprise and facing Israeli reserve units.
 

AFAIK, the Syrians actually managed to break the israeli line (I think to the south, on their secondary effort), but rumor has it that Israel threatened with a nuclear attack if Syria continued.
Israeli units were pushed back and stretched thin (while causing very heavy casualties to the Syrians). The Syrians, however, never broke through. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 17:24
Sorry been very busy. I'll deal with the points one by one
 
1)Cryptic, Damascus is within range of Israeli arty even from the Golan Heights, the Israelis were no where near the city or had any reasonable hopes of taking it.
 
2) The Syrian tank units, were fighting uphill in a narrow gap, they were funneled through passes, they Israelis could pick them off one by one, and they did, even then they came damn near close to breaking the Israeli line. Terrain is far far far more important than numbers.
 
3)On the Sinai Cryptic is mixing up two seperate events, the initial cavalry charge by Ghosens Brigade which was mauled, and a later tank battle involving three of the four divisions in action, both of which were lost by the Israelis. Indeed they had little success until the Egyptian moved forward away from their air umbrella.
 
4) As for the counter-crossing the israelis had crossed in the gao between the armies. However Adens assualt on a town (more accuratly a crossroads near the town) was repulsed by Egyptian reserves who also engaed Sharon and pushed him back, while simultaneously Third Army began to attack Sharon on his rear, they did AFAIK destroy a few bridges, Israeli Airforce attempts to support the troops in the Sinai were met with heavy losses, the heaviest of th war IIRC.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 22:54
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

 
1)Cryptic, Damascus is within range of Israeli arty even from the Golan Heights, the Israelis were no where near the city or had any reasonable hopes of taking it.
 
Damascus is forty miles from the heights and the Israelis advanced roughly 20 miles beyond the 1967 cease fire line. They were halfway to Damascus. I agree, they could not take the city house to house. My guess is that they would have forced arab units into the city, then cut the northeren roads between Damscus and the Syrian ports receiving Soviet re-supply.
   
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

, Israeli Airforce attempts to support the troops in the Sinai were met with heavy losses, the heaviest of th war IIRC.
Israeli aircraft losses per sortie were declining each day. The heaviest losses were on the first few days when IAF was not prepared for SAMS. US technical assistance, new flight tactics and the steady disruption of the SAM network allowed IAF to acheive air supereority.
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

Third Army began to attack Sharon on his rear, they did AFAIK destroy a few bridges, 
By the cease fire date, the Israelis had severed the last functioning crossing point supporting third army. They were isolated on the East bank with no stockpiles of supplies.


Edited by Cryptic - 20-Nov-2008 at 23:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 07:24
Hello to you all
 
About the Syrian front, Syria did break through Israeli lines, liberate Mount Hermon and from the souther end even reach the sea of Gallile. It was in the center where most of Syria's forces were concentrated and where Israelis checked them but Syria did gain land and held it to the end of the war. The problem with Syria was that it didn't expect neither the gains it made nor the fast Israeli mobalisation that happened. Only 60k were ever deployed (increased to some 85-90k by the end of the war) out of nearly 150k total. Syrian airforce was only committed for the first three days  (its pilots shot a total of 10-15 planes alone) then withdrawn into the interior. The goal in Syria was as in Egypt to gain a limited amount of land and force Israel to negotiate. They expected this to happen after Qunaitirah was liberated but it didn't. They lost valuble time waiting for the Israeli to negotiate and when orders for an all out attack came they found themselves fighting forces in much larger number. Israel was already 30 miles away from the Syria capital when the war started. They advances to about 19 miles away and then repulsed to the 25 miles line (which is the current de facto border) before the war ended (thank to the Iraqis). Syrian losses were about the same in number as the Israeli losses (about 1000 dead) which shows how good the syrian military was. After the war, the regime became more and more sectarian and the entire air force, special forces and most of the officer core were purged because they were not of the right ethinicity (many were Kurd) or religion (all of the purged officers were sunni).
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 11:43
Quote By the cease fire date, the Israelis had severed the last functioning crossing point supporting third army. They were isolated on the East bank with no stockpiles of supplies.


Israelis cut that connection AFTER the ceasefire was signed. That was of course, illegal behaviour, but since when Israel cared about law, eh? I know this because I saw the Israelis admit doing it on British TV.

Also, Soviet help to the Arabs was nowhere near the American help for the Israelis. The Soviets would probably have prevented the Arabs from attacking, so the Arabs acted alone. IIRC, they sent Soviet experts home before the war so that they would not alert the Soviets and the rest of the world.

Finally, Sharon did not cross the Nile as someone claimed up there...

Edited by Beylerbeyi - 21-Nov-2008 at 11:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 16:06
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi Beylerbeyi wrote:


Israelis cut that connection AFTER the ceasefire was signed. That was of course, illegal behaviour,
Yes, that is true.  It was retaliation for an attack (also illegal) by the Egyptian Third Army after the cease fire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 22:18

Cryptic, its true that Israeli losses declined after the first three days, until the penultimate day before the ceasefire agreement, when they were the heaviest single loss in a day. The reason was they came up against an umbrella which had been untouced and they could not degrade them due to range.

 
As for Third Army cut off, Third Army did have functioning bridgeheads and the Israelis cocluded after the war thatif it had gone on they would have broken out.


Edited by Sparten - 21-Nov-2008 at 22:22
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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