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Forum Locked1973 Arab Israeli War.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2007 at 01:34
Al Jassas, the Jordanian army was very, very weak.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2007 at 01:39
Actually it is the most disciplined best trained troops in the Arab world. Enev in the 67 war depite their hasety withdraw the casualty ratio was 2:1 in favour of the Israeli. The best rate any Arab army had.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2007 at 02:15
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Actually it is the most disciplined best trained troops in the Arab world. Enev in the 67 war depite their hasety withdraw the casualty ratio was 2:1 in favour of the Israeli. The best rate any Arab army had.
 
Their army was ill-equipped and not at all suited to fight for their time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hebrewtext Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2008 at 20:58
its the Arab self proclaimed victory ,
you need to watch the final situation of the war and not only the succesful battles at the begining.
 
only the ceasefire which was imposed by the US and the world stopped Israel from occupaying Qairo  and Damasscus.
 
look at the final Casualties and losses:
Israel-----------------------------------Egypt+Syria
2,656 killed                           8,528* 15,000  killed
7,250 wounded                   19,540* 35,000 wounded
400 tanks destroyed           2,250 tanks destroyed
102 planes shot down         432 planes destroyed

 


Edited by Hebrewtext - 24-Jan-2008 at 21:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2008 at 21:36

Hello Hebrewtext

Yeah, Sharon with his 20 000 men surrounded by two egyptian field armies 100 000 men each is going to occupy 2000 sq Km 5 mllion populated Cairo, 100 Km from where he was when the cease fire was declared was going to occupy Cairo. No wonder they kicked him out after the war even though his move was brilliant not enough men crossed the channel. The Egyptians told the Israelis if they wanted those poor devils to go home safely they had to agree for peace which they did. On the Syrian front however I agree with you, 200 000-250 000 soldiers on the Israeli side vs 120 000 Syrians, the fight was already over.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 01:21
Hmm...
truth is that the israelis would never take Cairo, however they seriously threatened the egyptian supply line, and theoretically they could reduce the 3rd egyptian army's force to zero, and thus force them to surrender. From the point the egyptians failed to stop the israelis from transporting 2+ armoured division on the other side of the Suez, the war was lost for them (I still don't know what their strategical reserves were, but it's 3.20 am, and i'm not gonna think over this topic any more for today).
On the syrian front, propably oppinions differ. Syrians claim they had stopped the israeli advance into Syria, and the Israelis would never be able to break the Syrian reserves (which included the well equiped Republican guard and other units). Israelis claim they stopped on purpose, because they needn'yt go any further from the time they had Damascus within range of their artillery.
Propably what I said has been said already, but it TOO late for me to search older posts in this thread. Perhaps tomorrow...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 04:21
Third Army was in dire straits no doubt about it. But I think if the war had gone on a few more days the Israelis would have suffered badly, one of the reasons that they and the Yanks were so desperate for a ceasefire, the Egyptians were bringing up reserves and Sharon was.........screwed, he had gone in against orders and there was little logistic build up to support him in anycase.
 
On the Syrian front, it should be remembered that the Syrians had a whole armoured corps yet uncommitted to action and they were planning an assault for the day after the ceasefire.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 07:41
Hello to you all
 
One must see the entire course of the war so that he can analyse it perfectly. If the Arabs did not start the war Israelis would have started it anyway using the same reasoning of the 67 war. Arabs had the chance and power to crush Israel but as I had said, they launched the war to get political gains not military ones and that is why Israel deployed more troops on both fronts than what the Arabs deployed. While Israel achieved a perfect victory on the Golan front victory was far from achieved on the Sinai front. Egyptians still had 80 000 men in Sinai, 3rd army, who achieved several victoried before they were stopped during the tank battle when they lost most of their tanks thanks to air assault, we still in control of 20-25% of the Penunsila. Sharon made an excellent move, thanks to direct stallite feeds from the US which Egyptians did not have, but the Egyptians soon found out and surrounded the Israelis whith the 1st Army from the south and the second army with some units of the third from the north. Egyptian supply lines were not cut as xristar says, all the main Egyptian army bases and airports were on the eastern bank of the Nile just kilometers away from the front. Plus Egyptians had 1000 SAM batteries scattered along the western side of Canal and almost half their airforce and the best of their planes were safely tucked in the south away from any Israeli harm. I think in one day after Sharon landed Israel lost 25 jets and because of that air support was stopped from reaching Sharon which meant he and the Israelis were sitting ducks. If Israel continued it would lose most of its effective airforce and Egypt will have a free reign on the Israelis both west and east of the Canal. Also Sharon was repulsed in the final day of the attack by a smaller Egyptian force which meant that any progress was just impossible. Same happened in Syria before the battle reached a stalemate by the October 25th when the Iraqi expeditionary force defeated and Israeli attack force in the south of Syria near Nawa if I am not mistaken and Syria gathered its entire aiforce and called on the reserve for a counter attack but the initial results were not encouraging and they were forced to stop.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 08:19
Now we have the egyptian point of view...
Quote Egyptian supply lines were not cut as xristar says

If I recall correctly the Israelis managed to cut all roads that connected Suez with the Egyptian interior.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 12:30
Lets be accurate after early initial advances which caught the Israelis on the hop and for once showed that the Arab armies could plan and carryout assaults, the ultimate result was a resounding defeat for the arab armies.
 
However, they had done enough to teach the Israelis to respect them. The first fruits of this was in the Egyptian attitude which allowed Sinaii to be restored to Egypt and peace to be set up between them and Israel. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 13:21
How was it a "resounding defeat"? The Egyptains achieved there aims.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 13:27
Their aims weren't to be driven back across the Nile with an Israeli army encamped on their side.
 
Their aims were to get back Sinai as a minimum. If you wish to call a defeat an achivement then fine.
 
Israel's aims were to have peace with their neighbours. This with regard to Egypt they have achieved by and large 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 13:44

The Egyptian war aim was to move 20 or so KM into Sinai and then stop. That is exactky what they did.

The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 13:56
And then what ?
 
Stand there forever ?
 
Advance into Israel ?
 
Try and defend against a counter-attack ?
 
If any or all of these, they failed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 14:52
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

The war coming after the israeli victory of 1967 (which was helped by the fact that most of the Egyptian army was in Yemen at the time).
 
In 1973 the result was rather different, but aside from the battlefield it was the failuer of Israeli intelligence that led to disaster for them.
 
Here is a film which explores the reasons behind the Israelisintelligence muck-up.
 
What surprised me the most was how easily the Israelis were lured into believing their own propaganda. Intel agencies the world over are supposed to be amoral and suspicous. Why was Israel caught out? My own take on this is that they were lured into a flaseence of security after 1967, not reaslising that the victory was over three reserve infantry divisions, and that most of Egypt's army was in yemen.
 
 
First, totally false premise regarding the 1967 war.  Egypt did not have just 3 reserve divisions in the Sinai.  Israel quickly defeated not just the Egyptians, but the Syrians and Jordanians as well.  In 1967 the 'Arab' forces did not have an effective answer to Israel's armour and airpower.  In 1973 the story was very different, largely due to the improvement in the training, discipline and equipment of the Egyptians and Syrians.  There was also the overconfidence of the IDF and the fact that the Egyptians and Syrians had successfully achieved surprize (keep in mind that they did attack during a Jewish religous holiday).  Still, that's not to excuse the IDF, just to say that it was a successful operation by their opponents.  In particular, the Egyptians displayed a high level of technical expertise in successfully crossing the Suez and destroying the 'fortifications' on the other side.  The IDF airpower could not penetrate the Egyptian air defenses and the IDF armour 'cavalry charge' was stopped by the Egyptian guided anti-tank missiles.  The 'Arabs' got into trouble when the IDF concentrated on the Syrians before finishing off the Egyptians.  The Egyptians had planned on establishing themselves in the Sinai, and then 'attritioning' the IDF by forming a strong defensive position and holding in the face of the expected IDF counterattacks.  This worked initially, however, this strategy was frustrated when the IDF switched to concentrating on the Syrian front.  Once the Syrians got into trouble the Egyptians were 'pressured' into taking the offensive, which cost them heavily.  Once Syria was finished off the Egyptian front was broken.  I strongly disagree that the ceasefire favoured Israel.  Also not that this conflict was something of a 'proxy war' between the Soviets and the Americans.  Yes, the US was rushing in supplies for Israel.  However, the Soviets were also supplying Egypt and Syria.  The Arabs did not 'win' the war in a military sense.  However, they had fought well and inflicted significant losses on the IDF.  It did change the dynamic to the advantage of Egypt in particular, as Israel was forced to realize that they no longer held the huge military advantage that had existed previously, and they could not afford to fight against these Arab armies repeatedly.  So Israel was thereafter willing to return the Sinai to Egypt to gain 'peace' with Egypt.  The 1973 War forced Israel to accept that Egypt was a legitimate threat and that simply holding the Sinai and remaining in a state of 'conflict' with Egypt was not viable in the long term.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 15:46
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

  In particular, the Egyptians displayed a high level of technical expertise in successfully crossing the Suez and destroying the 'fortifications' on the other side.  The IDF airpower could not penetrate the Egyptian air defenses and the IDF armour 'cavalry charge' was stopped by the Egyptian guided anti-tank missiles.  The 'Arabs' got into trouble when the IDF concentrated on the Syrians before finishing off the Egyptians.  
 
The Egyptians did display more skill, but only when fighting set piece battles with well rehearsed plans and tactics.   Israel quickly started to counter the SAM and ATGM systems.  Egyptian technical staff and battle field commanders lacked the skill to match these countermeasures.   Once the fighting reverted to a more complex war of manuver,  the far better trained and more dynamic Israeli Batalion and Brigade commanders gave them a huge advantage.
 
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

Third Army was in dire straits no doubt about it. But I think if the war had gone on a few more days the Israelis would have suffered badly
I disagree.  Though the Israelis never would have tried to take Cairo, the Egyptian military and civilian leadership lacked the skills and preperations to do a "Leningrad style" defense followed by a counter attack.
 
The Israelis would have cut all (or most) of the roads into Cairo and then start destroying the infrastructure.   I doubt that the Egyptian government had made advance preperations for a siege and furthermore, the Egyptian public was not prepared psychologicaly to resist a siege under increasingly difficult conditions.
 
The result... Military can't break siege, public panics, Egyptian government collapses.


Edited by Cryptic - 25-Jan-2008 at 16:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 17:33

At the time of the ceasfire something like half of Egypts military had not been committed to action, while every battalion in the Israeli Army was committed. The Israelis were in a pickle and the ceasfire could not come fast enough for them.

The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 17:43
Cryptic's post is an example of exactly what was wrong with isareli thinking in the leadup to the war. The belief that Arabs being Arab were unable of military operations. Cryptic wrote that not knowing the Gen Shazli had kept large amounts of reserves well away from the action for this eventuality. The Egyptians had identified the lack of reserves as one of the reasons that they were defeated on '67 and had remidied that.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 19:16
Hello to you all
 
Actually new testimonies confirmed what was always been already known, Sadat interferred in the conduct of the war and effectively tied the hands of the commanders behind their backs.
 
Remember, once the Egyptians crossed the canal and moved the entire 3rd army into Sinai with all its equipment (some 100k men and 2000+ tanks) which happened in about 48 hours, sadat denied both the 3rd army's advance into the middle of Sinai and the 2 (or first army I forgot) to do covering action and guard the Canal and even send reinforcements to occupy the south western coast of Sinai (Where Israeli forces were intact and it was where Sharron started his offensive) The Egyptians simply dug themselves in (defying every ounce of military logic) on the wrong side of the peninsula (facing the high ground which was at that time virtually unprotected by the Israeli side). Once The Israelis secured their positions on the Syrian front they turned their faces towards the Egyptians and managed to organize an effective offense against troops dug in and the result was obvious. There were severe recriminations after the war and the only thing that saved Sadat from a coup by the officers who advocated a more aggressive action was the fact that Israel agreed to peace and the movement was quickly isolated (some of its leaders were even assasinated).
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 22:14
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

Cryptic's post is an example of exactly what was wrong with isareli thinking in the leadup to the war. The belief that Arabs being Arab were unable of military operations. 
You are correct, there was a huge degree of Israeli over confidence. 
 
The fact that they crossed the Sinai showed that Arabs were increasingly capable of military operations. The Arabs, however, were still not equal to the Israelis at the Batalion and Brigade levels (as alter events showed). Unfortunalty, the Sinai war was a mobile war and dynamic Batalion / Brigade commanders are critical. Had the war been a Somme or Verdun type conflict, the Egyptians could ahve compensated for this short coming. 
 
In short.... the 1944 Wermacht had the skills to salvage the situation. The 1973 Egyptians could compete, but only for a limited time. They were breaking down fast and hoping the Soviets forced a cease fire or even better, started airlifting airborne divisions into Alexandria or Cairo.
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

At the time of the ceasfire something like half of Egypts military had not been committed to action, while every battalion in the Israeli Army was committed.
Israelis still had reserves on the Jordanian border and garisoning the West Bank. Some of the West bank units were shooting local Arabs on flimsy pretenses. Even still, they could be deployed of needed.  The Egyptian reserves were probably third string paramilitary security units. All units truly capable of offensive action against the Israelis had been committed.
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

The Egyptians simply dug themselves in (defying every ounce of military logic) on the wrong side of the peninsula
That is because they tried to move into the open desert and fight the Israelis tank on tank but they were badly defeated in a mobile battle. Despite big Egyptian improvements, Israeli tank crews and junior officer still out performed them. The Egyptians then did plan "b" (dig in under the protection of the initially very lethal SAMs, ATGMs and RPGs and hope the war turns into a hi tech version of Verdun.) But... the war stayed mobile and Israelis quickly found some fairly good countermeasure to the ATGMS and SAMS. 


Edited by Cryptic - 18-Nov-2008 at 22:52
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