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Forum Locked1973 Arab Israeli War.

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    Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 10:12
The war coming after the israeli victory of 1967 (which was helped by the fact that most of the Egyptian army was in Yemen at the time).
 
In 1973 the result was rather different, but aside from the battlefield it was the failuer of Israeli intelligence that led to disaster for them.
 
Here is a film which explores the reasons behind the Israelisintelligence muck-up.
 
What surprised me the most was how easily the Israelis were lured into believing their own propaganda. Intel agencies the world over are supposed to be amoral and suspicous. Why was Israel caught out? My own take on this is that they were lured into a flaseence of security after 1967, not reaslising that the victory was over three reserve infantry divisions, and that most of Egypt's army was in yemen.
 
Its in two parts
 
 
Part2
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 19:03

In my humble opinion the 1973 war was more of a disgrace than a victory. Syria especially had the power and the capability to destroy Israeli presence in the Golan and initiate an attack against Israeli soil if they gathered enough troops. They won the surprise factor and the initial battle especially the brilliant capture by Syria's SF’s of mount Hermon and keeping the mountain only to lose it when the soldiers were "ordered" to abandon position rather than continue the successful stance.

After taking more than 70% of the heights including all the high positions Syria kept the number of its soldiers at 60 000 men and did not mobilize the rest of the army nor move more troops to the front while the Israeli managed to gather 120 000 men at the Golan front in less than 1 day after the hostilities began. The Syrian command under Tlass (who was a failed officer and was only a Lt. colonel before the revolution that brought him). The reason was simple like all other arab wars, leaders were far more afraid from revolt with inside than any other foreign intervention. Syria deployed 100 000 men when Hama had a trivial civil disturbance resulting in the infamous massacre but only deployed 60 000 men and half its air force during the 1973 war and gave command to failures and men of no quality whatsoever. In the Egyptian front on the other hand what Egyptian commanders did was a disgrace to the name of military. Despite the legendary maneuver that destroyed the “indestructible” Bar-lev line they did mistakes a lieutenant in the Israeli army wont do. First, they did not deploy enough troops through the gap, from the three armies only one passed through.

 

Second, despite that the israelis had first priority in the Golan heights the egyptians after breaking through waited for the enemy to initiate the attack rather than taking the offensive.

 

Third and most deadly, the gap that the egyptian army left back at the western shore of the canal was not closed for 3 whole days! Now tell me how on earth can this happen especially that you can see your enemy across the canal. What was even worse when the Israelis crossed they were sandwiched by two egyptian backup armies that did absolutely nothing. They had the power to annihilate the intruders and then cross into the other side but they did not.

 

Thank You

 

Al-Jassas  

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 07:16
Al Jassas, the thing is that the ceasefire was accepted at the most opputune moment for the Israeli, when they had pushed the Arabs back, were about to run into their reserves, while they had expended their own and more. The Israelis would have been cut to pieces by the Egytians in Africa and third army was breaking out.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 17:36
The only reason they managed to push the Arabs back was that Arab politicians interfered in military matters and forbade the Arab armies especially the Egyptian one from taking offensive positions and take the initiative when the Israelis were at their most vulnerable point, and in war, your goal is to deeat your enemy not negotiate with him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 03:44
Yes, i agree with Al Jassas. The Israeli's seem to have had (and still do) a psychological edge on the Arabs, who had many opportunites to defeat the Israeli's but were simply too scared to take an initiative. That's how I interpret it, anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 07:40
Hello Kurt
 
Well I wouldn't characterize it as a psychological problem more than a political one. Arabs Do have the stomach to fight and if you really was wondering look what has happened and is happening in Palestine and Iraq for the last 30 years, Iraq lost half a million in a war with Iran, then with considerable popular support (contrary to what is portrayed in the media) went to war in Kuwaite which turned out in a manner unexpected to the Iraqis (they thought the world will just forget) and finally the curent bloodbath which is getting worse by the minute. Same goes to the Palestinians and the Lebanese who are as I speak prepared to go to war and non of the parties even colledge educated urban elite have any remorse in doing so. The Problem in the Arab Israeli wars is that Arab regimes (which are nothing but personal fiefdoms to their rulers) are more interested in keeping their seats than ending Israel (as they claim they want to do). Whenever their egos decide that a matter is at the atmose importance to "national security" they will vigorously do anything to finish that matter (which is normally a possible threat to the regime) no matter what the cost. Israel never had the intention (at least initially) to threaten the stability of neighboring regimes or change them with force and Arab leaders knew that so they never tried to takeout Israel because in doing so, their legitimacy will be lost and people will strart to demand for their rights and the regimes will fall naturally, but keeping Israel as the boogyman gave them the legitmacy to do anything because "the strugle" needs it. That is why we see Abdul-Nasser sending his best troops into a losing war in yemen and continuing that course vigorously for 5 years at the cost of 1000's the Egyptian soldiers and when Israel was preparing day and night for the 67 war he refused to do anything because admitting defeat in Yemen will simply shatter his ego.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2007 at 05:22
Agree with you Al-Jassas it was a disgrace,breifly Syria lost the suprise and driven back the Egyption army only crossed the canal then besieged by sharon plan I must say it was brilliant I hate to say that but that is the truth.
the Iraqi army arrived by miracle to save Damsacus from the advancing Israeli army sharon said it was a big suprise for us the Iraqi reach the front in short time.
 but all the Iraqi division destroyed to save the city from fall.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2007 at 05:55
Hello Ahmed and I always pray that you are safe from the terror that is hitting Iraq.
 
The Iraqi Army, at least before the Iran war, was always a professional army that was largely free from politicization in the egyptian way (promotions contiued to be under a merit based system and training was a priority). In Egypt, your politics were the determining factor in you staying or leaving the army, if you were a Nasser poodle everything is opened to you and if you were from his village things will easy. In Syria, the air force and much of the army became fiefdoms for communal tribes, Hafiz Al-Assad turned the air force an army reserved for his own sect kicking most of the excellent officers of other sects, Sunni, Ismaili and Christian officers, on the basis of Bathism. The army was not better, entering the army became a social previlage rather than a professional duty and training was simply non existant with the constant fear of yet another military coup by another politicised group of officers always looming.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2007 at 09:37
 Thank you Al-Jassas for your kindness and your prays mean a lot to me God bless you.
what you said is pretty much true,Iraqi army was a prof army till Saddam took the control.
Arab Tyrants or dictators  are the worst,by their policies they vanquished any chance to form a democratic state or build a free countries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2007 at 11:58

Two things to keep in mind,

1) Egypts objectives were v limited in 1973, they were to simply move 12-15 Km inside the Sanai and nthen stay there. Syria's were to regian the Golan Heights. In '73 the aim was never to destroy Israel.
 
2) The Egyptians achieved there aim, the Syrians failed.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2007 at 12:54
Hello TYou All
 
I beg to differ Sparten, If the goal of Egypt which could have one the war or at least made far greater advancement than what they did than they shouldn't have gone to war in the first place. It was simply stupid. As for Syrians no, they did make great advancements in the Golan region retaking most of the hilly region and almost all the strategic points including Mount Hermon in one of the most spectacular SF operations and all that was with a third of their total army and half the airforce, however, the sheer stupidity of the Syrian command refused to mobilize the rest of the army and ordered a halt to the advancement after facing a slight resistance in an isolated place that the could have been easily bypassed and continued to do their job without much harm done. The halt though it was for a brief moment (about 12 hours) was the coup de grace for the Syrians, The 3 to 1 ratio in favor of Syria was turned into a 2 to 1 ratio in Israel's favor with no additions to the existing Syrian force, actually, one veteran told me that his unit was withdrawn from the front because an attack that did not happen was underway against Nawa farther in the Syrian lands.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2007 at 15:45
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

Two things to keep in mind,

1) Egypts objectives were v limited in 1973, they were to simply move 12-15 Km inside the Sanai and nthen stay there. Syria's were to regian the Golan Heights. In '73 the aim was never to destroy Israel.
 
2) The Egyptians achieved there aim, the Syrians failed.
Ok fine the Goals were not to destroy Israel,but the Egyptions achieved their advance inside Sinai cause Israel gave Syrian front the priority it is closer to Israel after initial success the Syrian held back and Israeli counter attack begun to reach the capital,thank to the Iraqi tank division which reached in the injury time and save a day but with heavy losses.
then Israel turned back to egyption army Sharon besieged the 3rd egyption army and cross the Canal behind egyption back lines it was a disaster,Egypt must thank The Security Council for it's work to made the ceasefire.
now Egypt hold a small line in other side of the canal but the Israeli crossed it already.
Egypt accomplished it's goal on the table of negotiations not on the field they promised Israel in forever peace,and the last Israeli soldier withdraw from Taba(the last Island occupied by Israel)in 1982.
the one good thing in this war from Arab was they handle the fight with Israeli air force very good better than the ex-war.
and Sadat was the first one who accept the truce,cause knew the crisis of his army.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dubai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2007 at 23:10
one thing i never understood is how come sadat changed his stance so quick and made peace with israel? i mean just a few years earlier they were bitter enimies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2007 at 02:01
Brilliant Thread guys. I have nothing to contribute but its certainly worth the read 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2007 at 20:48
In my opinion the war of 1973 was a draw for the following reasons.
 
1.Israel managed to hold off the Arab Armies effectively despite the Arab element of surprise.
 
2. The Egyptians manged to gain back some of their lost territory and possibly could have done more damage to the Israelis had they moved beyond their SAM cover which would have been a very big risk and most likely have resulted in heavy losses for them.
 
3. The Israelis managed to gain some territory near the Golan Heights and actually threaten to push on Damascus.
 
4. The Arab forces managed to inflict heavy casualties on the Israelis which was something they could ill afford.
 
5. From a political point of view the war and it's circumstances allowed the Arabs to deal with the Israelis on a more equal footing.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2007 at 01:23
Lets see
 
1.Israel managed to hold off the Arab Armies effectively despite the Arab element of surprise.
Correction, US held off the Arabs, with their arms lift.
 
2. The Egyptians manged to gain back some of their lost territory and possibly could have done more damage to the Israelis had they moved beyond their SAM cover which would have been a very big risk and most likely have resulted in heavy losses for them.
 
They did infact move out of their SAM belt on the 16th of Oct and lost a whole division. Their pre-war aim was to stay in it. As the above video shows, the Egyptian war aims were limited. To the shock of the Israelis.
 
3. The Israelis managed to gain some territory near the Golan Heights and actually threaten to push on Damascus.
 
4. The Arab forces managed to inflict heavy casualties on the Israelis which was something they could ill afford.
 
5. From a political point of view the war and it's circumstances allowed the Arabs to deal with the Israelis on a more equal footing.
 
True.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2007 at 13:44
The Egyptians as well as the Syrians went to war wanting victory but doing NOTHING to achieve it. Immedeatly after crossing the Canal, they simply dug themselves up in defensive positions and stayed their for 2 days waiting for the enemy. The strategic central Highlands of Sinai which were near at hand and can easily be taken because of very weak Israeli defense were left. Rather than coordinating the air campaign by the strategic bombing of Israeli positions and achieving the double goal of occupying the powerful Israeli airforce from praying on the Syrians as well as freeing the ground forces from air attack they simply kept their force commited to a lost cause fighting the israeli air force and never again attacked the Israeli heartland. The political command was reluctant and wanted peace through negotiation rather than actually achieving a victory on the ground then accepting a cease fire.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2007 at 14:41
Al Jassas, that was the plan. Move 10 Km and sit back. Thats what they did. The Israeli counterattack on the first and second days was the death ride of their armour. Their plan was to occuply a bit of territory and negotiate! Thats what they did. Successfully! Destroying Israel was never a war aim.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2007 at 15:22
Sparten, I know that negotiation was the aim of the Egyptians, but negotiations come after victory not defeat, in the war Egypt came dangerously near to total defeat when Sharon went across the canal, defeated all the forces sent to him and went towards Cairo. The Entire Egyptian 3rd Army was encircled due to lack of offensive action in the first 3 days and Israel really wanted not only to destroy the 3rd army (surrender was not a choice, they could have bombarded the army to smithereens in only a couple of days) but to occupy both Cairo and Damascus if possible. Only international intervention did not make this scenario happen because it will simply lead to a world war. After negotiations Egypt became a toothles old lion living on American charity with no real control on it borders with Israel nor any forces in Saini or near the Canal from the African side (no disrespec intended). If you want to negotiate you at least force your self to them not let an outside government come to your help.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2007 at 15:27
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Sparten, I know that negotiation was the aim of the Egyptians, but negotiations come after victory not defeat, in the war Egypt came dangerously near to total defeat when Sharon went across the canal, defeated all the forces sent to him and went towards Cairo. The Entire Egyptian 3rd Army was encircled due to lack of offensive action in the first 3 days and Israel really wanted not only to destroy the 3rd army (surrender was not a choice, they could have bombarded the army to smithereens in only a couple of days) but to occupy both Cairo and Damascus if possible. Only international intervention did not make this scenario happen because it will simply lead to a world war. After negotiations Egypt became a toothles old lion living on American charity with no real control on it borders with Israel nor any forces in Saini or near the Canal from the African side (no disrespec intended). If you want to negotiate you at least force your self to them not let an outside government come to your help.
 
al-Jassas 
Everything at least wasn't a total loss for Egypt as they managed to surprise the Israeli's and inflict milidly high losses on them. Aslo they could carry out negotiations on a more equal footing. So it was overall win some and lose some for the Egyptians.

Edited by Kevin - 28-Aug-2007 at 16:19
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