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Forum Locked1916 Rising in Ireland. Progress or regress?

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Poll Question: Did the Rising do more good than harm to the cause of Irish freedom?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2007 at 20:15
I blather and rave about everything... Its all I have :P
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 04:27
I'll be blunt, do not call me an imperialist and a Supportor of Britain etc when you do not know me. I dont have the energy, nor do I think it is a good use of it, to show you why you are reactionary and wrong, but the fact is, you are. Read the posts again and don't embarass yourself..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caoimhe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 10:50
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

I blather and rave about everything... Its all I have :P


Well at least you admit it ClapWinkTongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caoimhe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 11:11
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

I'll be blunt, do not call me an imperialist and a Supportor of Britain etc when you do not know me. I dont have the energy, nor do I think it is a good use of it, to show you why you are reactionary and wrong, but the fact is, you are. Read the posts again and don't embarass yourself..



Take your own advice and reread the posts, you'll see at no time did I call you an imperialist or supporter of Britain. I'm not the one embarrassing myself (indeed I don't think anyone is, so where you're coming from with that one only God knows). But please by all means show why I am "reactionary and wrong", simply stating it doesn't make it so and I can assure you that my position is not the one here that is flawed...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2007 at 18:33
Hello all of you
 
I know I am meddling in affairs that are not my concern but lets be frank, what did Ireland gain from independence. It was divided, went to civil war and the young andbright immedeatly left for America or England, then a very long depression that made it the poorest country in western Europe for 60 years. the oppresion of the Brits was substituted with the oppression of the church and it supporters and the young literally escaped from Ireland to where? to England of course. Now, 80% of the economy directly depends on the UK, the dream that every one will speak Gaelic and religious Irish culture with its songs and jigs is shattered because less than 20% of the people understand the language despite studying it from the beginnig and the culture is fully americanized and anglophile.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2007 at 09:31
Must agree Al Jassas, and your opinions are always welcome! What the government needs to do is ban everyone from speakng Irish. Within twenty years the entire country would be fluent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caoimhe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 12:06
Al Jassas hi;

Of course you are more than welcome to give your opinion! You raise a lot of interesting points, however, your reading of Irish history over this period is naive in the extreme and there are too many fundamental flaws.

Just to give one example, you cite "the oppression of the church and its supporters". First of all there was no oppression, it is a myth. The fact it is a myth is of course shown in your own description "and its supporters". The Catholic Church's supporters were 90% of the Irish Population! During the first half of the 20th Century Irish people were devoutly religious, however the 90% were devoutly Catholic, this led to great reverence for the Catholic Church. Of course this reverence is strange to our secular 21st Century thinking, if not a little extreme but retrospectively applying our 21st Century thinking to this period is wrong as it distorts our understanding of the past.

As I said Al Jassas, you raise some interesting points however you commit some of the most basic historical errors and it is hard to take anyone who agrees with you serious.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 13:13
Thanks for your response
I read a lot about Eamonn de Valera's life and the Irish struggle for independence as well as the struggle in NI and actually, Ireland was the first country to interest me when I became able to use the internet back in late 1999 (I even tried to learn Gaelic LOL) and though I definitely can not tell you about your country's history what I said in my post were impressions from dissidant Irish people as well as my own conclusions. Of course the country was a true democracy no doubt about that but I stick to my point that the Church had too great a power and that politicians gave it their support, angering the Church in the 30's and 40's was a political death sentence to the politician who does that. The church also had defacto immunity from prosecution for a long time in addition to "special previlages" given to it by the state. Divorce, abortion (I support the ban by the way contrary to most Irish people) and other social aspects that the church opposes (I still don't believe that divorce was allowed only in 1995). Finally, my point in my earlier post is that Ireland was better off united with the UK than independent. The UK did not force conscription on Ireland in WWI and tried not to provoke Irish sentiment but Irish nationalist took it too far when they rebelled in April of 1916. If the Irish waited till after the war when the congress sent its letter demanding Irish freedom and the people in the UK were prepared for independence without war, Ireland might have been united by now and those fundamentalist unionists would accept the fact on the ground not gain popular support from the home country which was sick and tired from the long Irish question.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 16:14
Tolstoy believed that individuals did not decide history, but events did. Although the few thousand men and women who fought in Easter 1916 died and lost horribly, they inspired and persuaded the Irish people to believe that full independence was the only acceptable end point of any dealing with the UK.  Its hard to rationalise the will of the people in any given situation, but especially Irelands following Easter 1916...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 04:51
Originally posted by Fdhla Fdhla wrote:


Just to give one example, you cite "the oppression of the church and its supporters". First of all there was no oppression, it is a myth. The fact it is a myth is of course shown in your own description "and its supporters". The Catholic Church's supporters were 90% of the Irish Population! During the first half of the 20th Century Irish people were devoutly religious, however the 90% were devoutly Catholic, this led to great reverence for the Catholic Church.

 
 
The Catholic Church is a great, festering boil on Irish society that thankfully has been burst by secularity. Too much power, abuses, bigotry, racism and control in my view..There was significant oppression from the Catholic church, with church schools indoctrinating and beating students, 'Priest schools', places like the Magdelene Laundries, the workschool in Galway in the 50's etc etc. People started seeing how they had been misled when their own hard work started to earn them a better standard of living, not baseless reverence to a church that impoverished them and told them to look for riches in the afterlife. Poor people are easier to control with faith.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 08:11
Alas tis the fate of being poor. When the government couldn't supply basic services to the people, the Church came in and supplemented these services to the people as well as indoctrination...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caoimhe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 13:03

Al Jassas hi;

As you say you can not tell me the history of my country, indeed I only know it too well. I have to say dissident Irish people and your own conclusions are not a good mix. Regarding your point about the Catholic Church it was well noted the first time and as I explained was complete rubbish, simply reiterating the point doesnt change that fact. It is still a myth; indeed, subsequent responses to this thread have actually proven me right on that.

However, you do say going against the Catholic Church was a death sentence for politicians; maybe you would like to name some names or give some examples? Off the top of my head I can think of one politician who went against the Catholic Church many times, amon de Valera and most notably when he refused to make the Catholic Church the official Church in his 1937 Constitution. De Valera was, of course, the most successful Irish politician of this period.

As for your contention that Irish People have no right to Independence, well, a good few million Irish men and women would disagree, somehow I think their opinion matters more than yours. Your contention is nothing to do with history by the way, it is politics which I refuse to discuss. I will say one thing though; staying under foreign domination would not have improved the lot of the Irish people. Ireland would have still remained a neglected region social conditions would have been bad if not worse. In fact I could envision a scenario whereby disaffection with social conditions, combined with the tradition of Armed Insurrection, as well as the spread communism, aligned with radicals such as Connolly, Larkin, Mellows, OCasey and others would have probably made Ireland ripe for sustained violence that could well have even led to a communist takeover, maybe a European Cuba?

Britain did not force conscription on Ireland because it was not politically expedient for them to do so, not as you seem to believe out of the goodness of their heart. I think you have just proven your own lack of understanding of Irish history here. Ireland did indeed send their wishes for independence peacefully and democratically. For the thirty years previous to the WWI Irish People had agitated democratically for self rule, in 1919 they even sent a message through their democratically elected Government to the Peace Conference which Britain refused to even acknowledge. So I think its fair to say that Irish People had been waiting long enough, the simple fact is that the British Government did not want to grant Irish People Independence as ALL the evidence shows.

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caoimhe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 13:10

Dolphin a chara,

You left out the most important part of my post when you quoted me: "Of course this reverence is strange to our secular 21st Century thinking, if not a little extreme but retrospectively applying our 21st Century thinking to this period is wrong as it distorts our understanding of the past"...
why? Were you incapable of understanding what it meant or did you just wilfully ignore it so you could get your little rant in?

It doesnt matter either way you proved me right by distorting the past. Indeed you even have to create a new myth in the process, that " people " were " misled ". Its funny everything you dont agree with comes down to the fact that " people " were " misled ". What a delightfully empty phrase that says everything and nothing all at the same time! lol! I suppose " people " were being " misled " since the time of St Patrick? lol!

Yes the Church abused its position; yes secularism is a good thing. That still doesnt mean that there was oppression of the church. As I said it is largely a modern day myth that simply distorts the past.



Edited by Fdhla - 31-Aug-2007 at 13:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 13:55
Hello Fdhla
I think you misunderstood my point earlier so I will explain my views again.
 
First, I never said that Ireland has no right for independence, in fact I think breaking the current UK is the best option at the moment. I merely said that it was better not to have gained independence so early because the consequences were sever and I explained them in my first post. If the Irish waited for 20 more years Ireland might have already recovered from the effects of WWI and the Protestant north would have been more acceptable to the idea of an Irish republic and the independence would be complete.
 
As for my second point, unfortunatly the facts do not support your claim that my thoughts are rubbish (thanks for your complements by the way). The child sex abuse scandals that go way back to the 50s with no charges being filed until the 2000's is a proof of the power of the church.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caoimhe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 15:45
Al Jassas hi;

I understood your point perfectly well in fact if you go back to my original post to you, you will see that. I said in that post that you made some of the "most basic historical errors" and that "your reading of Irish history was naive in the extreme". This is because you commit the fatal error of the Historian's fallacy until you accept that fact your reading of Irish history is rubbish.

As an old saying around my way goes "if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle". However that's not the point, your little "what if" scenario only highlights further your naive understanding of Irish History. Ireland actually did quite well during WWI, indeed there was no need to "recover from the effects" whatever you mean by that and in some ways it was for this very fact that the Independence movement gained so much momentum when it did.


As for the "Protestant north (sic)", again you are showing your naivety.  The very basis of Unionism is to keep their privileged position in Irish society over (in their view) the savage papists. Only this year they agreed to finally share power with Nationalists.

As for your second point, what facts? You haven't supplied any apart from wishy washy phrases about "oppression" and what not. You couldn't even supply any politicians name.

edited to fix link


Edited by Fdhla - 31-Aug-2007 at 19:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 18:31

Hello Fdhla

Obviously you need to chill out a little bit. I know a fairly good deal about the plantation system that existed in Ireland as a whole and in NI in particular and its role in the Great Famine as well as the bigotry that some of the immigrant protestant community had against the catholic population and their staunch opposition to any reform law that changes the size of the electorate because that means that more "Papists" will enter and the discrimination that they wanted to continue just like the white opposition to the enfranchisement of Backs in the 1960s America.
 
However, that does not mean that those were the only reasons for unionism, remember, there are "Papist" unionist as well as "Protestant" republicans ( Hyde the first president of th Ireland was protestant) and each team had its own reason namely economic as was as liberal laws that exist in England. After independence, several liberal laws like divorce  were scraped and Eamonn de Valera agreed that the catholic church would have a special position (including state funding). The economic situation was dire and terrible and Ireland was the pooerest country in western Europe until. as for conscription, I thought Ireland was a part of the "United Kingdom" under the unification law of 1801 and thus conscription had to be applied to Ireland but it didn't.
as for 90% of Ireland being practicing catholics and supporting the church will did you survey them back then? If what we know now about the child sex abuse that happened in which the church used its power to prevent these cases from even being registered at the police (it was in the 2000s when we finally knew how big the hole was) and the state refrained from protecting children from predators whom the church only gave a slap on the wrist. Well, if that is not abuse then what is it?
 
Finally, one time I was hearing NPR covering the enthusiastic inaugeration of pope Benedect XVI when she told that young Italian women enthusiatically attended the ceremony and the mass with their live in boyfriends and the Pill in their trouser pockets and you understand the meaning.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caoimhe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 19:28
Al Jassas hi;

I'm still waiting for you to supply some politicians name, perhaps you would like to withdraw that point? As for the abuses of the Church I never said they did not happen or that they were not horrific. They did happen and they were horrific, however, that doesn't mean we get to make up stuff  now does it?

As for you knowing a good deal about the plantations, well I hope you do, however it has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said. In my point about Unionism I never mentioned their sectarianism as such and it had nothing to do with my point, although it is a problem that unfortunately still exists in Ireland today that does need to be tackled. My point, originally was, that one of the basic tenets of Unionism is keeping their privileged position whether it be political or economic. This fact would seem to contradict your naive belief that had Irish People "waited" then they would have had a fully independent 32 county Irish Republic.

Al Jassas if you want to actually discuss history, as in what happened, then I will no problem. However if you want to talk myth, what ifs and made up stuff well count me out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2007 at 06:13
Sorry about my politician comment, I take it back Embarrassed.
 
As for my "Naive" notion that the Irish would have gotten full independence if they waited, well, from the other post by your fellow Irishpeople (trying not to be sexist) I think I am not alone in that thought. Any way, it is an Irish business that I have no business in it but on record, I still believe in what I said earlier. I am out
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caoimhe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2007 at 11:09
AJ hi;

Of course you are entitled to believe anything you want, I mean some people believe that the American President is a shape shifting lizard from another planet.

The fact is that Unionist intransigence still exists in the year 2007 eighty or so years after Independence. How this intransigence would have suddenly disappeared within 20 years is a mystery to me especially considering it meant reinforcing the basis of that intransigence in the first place.

As to the contention that Irish people should have "waited" what does that even mean? Should the French Resistance have "waited" for Europe to be liberated? Self determination is a basic right, the Irish people were denied that right by a foreign power. That wasn't going to change anytime soon. Either Irish people are allowed to exercise that right or not. You seem to be of the opinion that they should not be allowed have the right to self determination because, you believe, they should have "waited".

I would say you are basing that judgment on hindsight and that judgments based on hindsight are useless. However it is not even based on hindsight because if Ireland had have "waited" for twenty years then it would have found it self still in the Empire when WWII broke out. There is no way Britain would have allowed Ireland to become Independent while it was fighting a war. The War, and more particularly Britain's scare at the hands of Nazi Germany, would have only given Britain a further excuse not to grant Ireland Independence afterwards on grounds of security. Funnily enough the same excuse they had been using for hundreds of years.

This is, of course, a moot point anyway because Irish people have a right to self determination.



Edited by Fdhla - 02-Sep-2007 at 11:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2007 at 04:13
Yeah, Al Jassas, you are right to back out of this 'discusssion'. I deal with enough people like Fdhla to know that he is always right, and therefore it is pointless to even discuss anything with him. We'll leave it at this, I am wrong, lol, lol, lol <<quote>> and Fodhla is right, and I am also out.
 
 
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